Utah’s Ritual Abuse Scandal Is About To Expose Dark Truths

In this explosive investigation, we expose the dark reality of satanism and human trafficking within Utah’s institutions with Pop Crime‘s Lauren Conlin. The truth about recovered memories of sexual abuse threatens to shake both government and religious foundations to their core. This critical expose reveals the corruption that has allowed these human sacrifices to continue unchecked, demanding immediate action from those who value truth and justice.

Get my book, Invasion, here: https://treeoflibertysociety.com/books/invasion

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TRANSCRIPT

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And he said that if the truth was known about what was really going on with satanic ritual abuse within the state of Utah, it would damage the foundations of not only the government, but also church within the state of Utah. Hey everyone. Welcome to Pop Crime TV's The Outlier podcast. I'm Lauren Conlon, and we've got a bit of a different format today as part of our Utah series, Diving Into the Ritualistic Abuse Scandal. And this is part seven. So today I have a special guest, Ben McClintock. He's the founder of the Tree of Liberty Society in Utah. And he's known for his investigative work into the underbelly of the Utah power structure and just the pursuit of truth behind ritualistic abuse and its origins. And so he has spent years exposing institutional cover-ups as well as ritualistic abuse studies. And he actually worked alongside Glenn Pace himself.

So I cannot wait to just dive in and talk to him about that. But Ben has also written a book, and it's called Invasion, How the Conspiracy Has Infiltrated Your Community. And I will link that out in the episode notes as well. But Ben is here to share what he's learned while researching and investigating. And I'm here to ask questions and learn. So with that being said, I'm going to bring Ben in right now. Hey, Ben. Hey. So thanks so much for having me. Yeah, of course.

Thanks for being here. So as you know, I just kind of started looking into this story. And there's a lot of moving parts. And I'm very grateful to the people who reach out to me with information. And also the people that push back on me, right, and say, hey, you only know one side of things. You don't know the other side. Well, tell me the other side. But right now, I want to know a little bit about your background and what the Tree of Liberty Society is. Yeah. So I have been working with organizing people to defend liberty since 2003.

I started out as a regional field director for the John Birch Society, directing all of their activities for the Western United States. And then starting in 2013, I started to say, okay, how does this international network of individuals that have stated in their own documents that they want to build a world government, how are they implementing it on the local level? And so I started the Tree of Liberty Society to be able to dig into that. How are we getting United Nations Agenda 2030 programs implemented on the city level? We don't have UN troops invading our nation. We have local individuals that are actually turning us over to these programs. And so investigating how this happens through different organizations like the Bohemian Grove, like the Skull and Bones Society, like the Council on Foreign Relations, which has chapters all across the country working with local individuals to get those local communities like Salt Lake City to be able to implement these globalist programs. And so with that, it has led me to be able to investigate things and uncover things that haven't been covered before.

Okay. So this is not, and forgive my ignorance, I guess, because, you know, I mentioned to you, I had never heard of Skull and Bones. I'm, you know, I'm from New Hampshire. I live in New York City now. And I don't know if maybe it's just a Northeast thing, but it sounds like you said there are chapters everywhere. But I guess this is twofold for me. So this is not about becoming a sovereign citizen or anything like that. No, not even close. No. Okay.

Sorry. So then what exactly is Skull and Bones? If any, I mean, maybe people are not aware like I was not aware, but please. So Skull and Bones is a secret society at Yale where it was started at Yale in the 1830s. You have Captain and William Russell, who was actually in Germany in college and joined what was called the Tootenboom, Brotherhood of Death. And when he came to Yale, he started his chapter of that at Skull and Bones at Yale in the 1830s. And so that expanded. And we have presidents of the United States in 2004, for example, both John Kerry and George W. Bush were both members of Skull and Bones running for president. And if you guys remember. Is that a well-known thing?

I'm sorry to interrupt you. Is that well-known? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Back in the election in 2004, if you guys remember that Don't Tase Me, Bro? Yes. Yes. It was because he asked John Kerry about his membership in Skull and Bones.

That's what led to that controversy. Wow. See, I mean, look, I was much less informed back then. Not my goal, I guess, to be informed. But I remember exactly what you're talking about. Okay, this makes sense. Wow. Yeah. And then Tim Russert interviewed both George W. Bush and John Kerry, asked them both about their membership in Skull and Bones. Like, hey, what's going on?

You guys are both members of the Secret Society. And they both said, well, it's so secret, I can't talk about it. And then just like, it was done. And so, yeah, so their organization is dedicated basically to building what George Bush Sr. referred to in his speech regarding the war in Iraq, the New World Order. And so that's what they're working towards. And so in 1910, they had an alumni from Yale, was actually a pastor in Utah, started the Yale chapter. I'm sorry, started a chapter of Skull and Bones at the University of Utah in 1910. And so just really doing research to discover who are the, you know, because the people that then go on from Yale, not all of them are well known, like John Kerry and George W. Bush. But they all seem to enter into key aspects of society, whether it's in academia, whether it's in business or in politics. They're placed in key aspects of society to help shift the culture towards the goals of this organization.

Okay. Got it. All right. That makes sense. I guess I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't know what Skull and Bones was. And, you know, maybe I had heard about it, but I just hadn't paid attention. Yeah, sometimes, yes. It's kind of out in our peripherals. Yeah, it definitely hasn't been on the forefront of my mind, except now. And, like, I've seen it, and I've had a couple people mention it to me after I began sort of my research and my coverage into Utah and specifically Utah County.

But let's just go to Glenn Pace and, you know, his investigation in 1989 into ritualistic abuse. And, you know, what was your connection there? And how did you get in touch with Glenn Pace? Yeah. So, the original memo, I was just, like, 12 years old or less than that. I was, like, 10 years old when the original memo came out. And so it wasn't on my radar when it first came out. But in the early 2000s, I came across it. So it's this memo. Glenn Pace, for your listeners, Glenn Pace was a member of the presiding bishopric of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints during this time frame, late 80s, early 90s. That is one of the governing bodies of that church.

And there was a lot of individuals from Mexico, Idaho, California, Utah, that were going to their local leaders, their local church leaders, and telling them what had happened to them. And these local, you know, these bishops, which are the local ecclesiastical leaders in the church, were like, I don't even know what to do with this. And so they were, like, passing it up to Salt Lake, to headquarters, and saying, what do we do about this? And so there is a little-known organization within the church called the Strengthening the Members Committee. And they were tasked with investigating this. And in that committee, Glenn Pace was the individual with a couple of others that were tasked with interviewing these members of the church to kind of figure out, you know, what's going on. And so they issued this memo. It's referred to as the Glenn Pace memo. It was a memorandum that he submitted to this committee talking about just the results of his investigation, what it does. And so when it came out, sorry, I'm just, like, thinking in my head, what order do I put this stuff in?

No, and I discussed this on a previous episode. So I think if people listening, they're familiar. I've read excerpts from it. So, yeah, they should be pretty – no, but continue. I don't want to deter you. It's good to get a refresher, so. Yeah. And what's interesting, in the memo itself, it refers to two other memos that never became public. And so this one was leaked, and it wasn't, like – it wasn't put out by the church after it was submitted. Somebody within the committee, we don't know who, leaked it to an anti-Mormon organization called Lighthouse Ministries, and then they published it.

And so – but in the memo, it refers to two others. And so I'm, like, what happened in these other two memos? It's, like, referencing them, like, as you know from this other memo. And so – Yeah. Just reading that and just how horrific the things that he discussed. And he – as you know, he talked about how there's just – they – all these people from different walks of life telling the same exact story. He's, like, I believe it. Mm-hmm. And so fast forward 2000 – I'm thinking 2019, 2018.

I want to – I've already talked to people that have confirmed the memo with him, but I want to talk to him myself. I want to ask him questions. I want to, you know, just kind of confirm everything. And so I – somebody else that had been able to get his information, because it wasn't public, I couldn't just look it up in the phone book or the white pages or whatever. I was able to get his information from an individual that had been able to contact him. And so I go to his house because I didn't have his phone number. I didn't have any way to, like, set up a meeting. I just show up to his door unannounced. Wow. And he's, you know – he says he's, you know, getting over a cold.

He's talking to us real quick. He doesn't really want to talk to us. He's kind of looking around, making sure nothing, you know, crazy is going to happen. And we just ask him about the memo, and he confirms it. He says, yes, the memo is true. And he says that not only is it true, but it's worse than what I was able to put in the memo. And he said that if the truth was known about what was really going on with satanic ritual abuse within the state of Utah, it would really – it would damage the foundations of not only the government, but also church within the state of Utah. And – The Utah government, you're saying?

Or did he mean – Within the Utah government, specifically. Okay. Wow. Okay. So he said not only is everything true, but it's worse. Okay. That's terrifying. That's totally terrifying. And he spoke to – I mean, he believed that over 800 members of the church were involved based on his research.

And, you know, there was, I guess, a very – what some would call a flimsy investigation into this after. And they, of course, they said, nope, there's nothing here. And I think this is where the – I guess the argument comes in about repressed memories, false memories, dissociation. Because he believed, Glenn Pace believed, that this was all on purpose. It was all on purpose to train these children to dissociate and to do whatever they were told to do by the church. Am I right? Well, by the Church of Satan specifically, but yes. Okay. Got it. So, I mean, and going back to this, so did you guys talk about anything else?

Did you talk about any specific survivors, any specific cases? He was not comfortable with that at all. He, you know, it was almost like an ambush, you know, just because of the situation. And he did not want to talk to us. And so he just kind of gave us a brief overview. And you talk about the 300 individuals that he had interviewed. That's in the 80s. And so he talked about how, you know, because nothing happened when this officially got released, it's only gotten exponentially worse in the, you know, 40 years following. And so because nothing has ever, as it ever, you know, came of it. And so you, and then you have, of course, the labeling of the satanic panic and the linking of it to, of course, repressed memories, which, you know, I have interviewed other people that, you know, are survivors of satanic ritual abuse.

And that's, that's, that's a, that's a problem because there's no physical evidence when you have that. And so what happens is a lot of people want to focus on that part of it, but they want to ignore the fact that there are, there are dozens of others. If, you know, there's an equal amount of others that didn't have these things, these same exact stories, you know, accounts that happened to them that aren't the result of repressed memory through, you know, through, through hypnosis. Um, that these are people that just came forward and said, this is what my dad did to me. This is what so-and-so did to me. We have individuals that are, that, that were perpetrators that came to the attorney general and said, I was a part of this. And they said, Oh, sorry, we don't have enough evidence. And so they didn't. How do you have, you have proof of that? Individuals who said, I participated in this type of abuse.

I abused someone else. We produced a document on a ritualistic abuse, talking about people coming forward. Uh, confessing to being a part of this and nothing ever happened to it. Who, sorry, who did? The FBI. The FBI. Is this document available or? I'll forward you the document. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Got it. I would love to see that document. That's, that's fascinating because yeah. Well, you know, I, it's, it's really tough because I do believe, I believe that this is happening. I have, I have a very hard time believing that some of the people that I've spoken to and, and the, you know, some of the cases that I've read about that. Again, number one, they would all have the same type of thing happening and they come from different areas and different places. And number two, it, it is so disturbing and so horrific. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to think that somebody could make this up, but you also see why people don't believe it. Right. I, a hundred percent.

When I first came across the victim impact statement and started looking into this, I actually took a break. Because I was like, I don't even know if I can, it's because it is just so wild, right? It's so wild. And then the deeper I got, the more I was like, oh my gosh, this, I believe this is real. I don't see how this isn't real at this point. So, which is why I was just compelled to, to sort of dive in, but in a way, hopefully that I guess I still, I guess I still was, was open to hearing the other side, Ben, if that, if that makes sense. Right. But you yourself, you've spoken to survivors and also perpetrators. So I have not spoken. So when I speak of perpetrators, I'm referring to the FBI document, talking about people that have come forward and admitted it.

And that it was dismissed because there was no evidence. Right. And, and the people that you have spoken to that are survivors, I mean, you were, were they, were they, I guess, repressing memories that they had just remembered? Or did they come forward and say, this is what happened to me? And I, I've lived with this. Are all from repressed memories that it was done through hypnosis with a, with a psychologist. And so, but. Which psychologist? What's that? Sorry.

Was it, which psychologist? Was it all the same psychologist or was it? Who psychologists? Which, what is it? Different ones. So each, each person had a different psychologist that they were working with that brought these, that was, that, and it wasn't like something that they were trying to, you're like, oh, you know, I think you have this. Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's repress. Like, these are different psychologists working with them. And they're like, I think, you know, we need to see what your problems are on a deeper level. Maybe you're not remembering it.

And so they put them under hypnosis. And under hypnosis, these different psychologists brought these things forward out of these individuals. So you know that this is what they've alleged that David Hamblin did to some of these people. And this is why they have these memories. Oh, because David Hamblin hypnotized me and planted these memories. So, I mean, what, you know, how do you rebut that? How do you, you know, how do you prove that that didn't happen? That's the tough part. It's just like Glenn Pace talked about is because of the way that those personalities are split. It's, you know, and there's the physical evidence.

And so, you know, especially the biggest problem is with the repressed memory as opposed to those that are just submitting this. But we have, it's not like the UFO stories where you have people, you know, over 100 years of this being in the lexicon where people are hearing what other people are saying about it. These are people that the satanic ritual abuse stuff just came out into the, in the 80s, came out in the public because it was a brand new thing. And we had people from, you know, not only from the United States, but from Mexico as well, coming forward, telling the same exact thing without this. Oh, I heard it somewhere else. And then today, if new people come out with it, you can say, okay, it's possible they've, you know, watched a podcast or watched a show about this or, you know, watched a documentary. But, you know, it's still not very common. And how many people have read the victim statements from police reports? Very, very few. None of the people that I've talked to even knew about the police documents to be able to have read before they had their experience with their psychologist bringing these things forward.

I agree. I agree. It's not, it's, this isn't, we can't say this is just a repeat of the UFO phenomenon. I totally agree with that. And it's funny because that is in, that is mentioned in some of the defense filing in the American Fork case for David Lee Hamblin. And that American Fork case with the victim, ES, was, was just dismissed. But they had alleged a few times the defense that, oh, ES only said all of this because she read the victim impact statement from 20, the 2014 leak or whenever that was. And so it is, it's interesting that you bring that up because I, look, I don't think that this victim impact statement was widely circulated. And I don't think you can find a lot of these claims very easily. I mean, these specific, disturbing, very detailed incidents of satanic abuse.

It's hard. You do have to, to dig for the story. So I agree with you. It's not like everybody knows and, um, and is saying the same thing. So I guess it kind of feels though, Ben, it's like a vicious cycle here. And it feels like we're just going through the motions here with Hamblin because they kind of have to at this point. Um, and it's heartbreaking, truly, it's heartbreaking to see what's going on. You've got this guy accused how many times, you know? Um, and it's like too much evidence, not enough evidence, uh, hidden evidence. Why, why is no one seeing like that?

This is a little bizarre. I don't, it's, it's confusing. And when it all finally comes out, this happened a couple of years ago with another individual up in Bountiful where, um, the, the, the evidence is submitted and they say, Oh, I'm sorry. The statute of limitations, we have to be running and put this on trial to see if they're guilty or not. Because, you know, even if they are guilty, it's past the statute of limitations. We got to let them go. Yeah, it's, it's wild. And my whole thing here is that I think that more people now are becoming aware of this, uh, especially with David Lee Hamblin and his pre-trial hearing and everything. And, and look, I think that if, if Utah was smart, they would take the, uh, San Pete case, they would take it all the way to trial. And, you know, they would figure out how to get a conviction because at this point, I think that somebody, and I'm not saying, I don't know how I, I, I should say this.

I guess they, somebody needs to be held accountable right now. And I do believe that the evidence for TS is there based on the fact that they can't argue, right? Like they're, they're going to say, okay, well, the same investigators that allegedly held the info in the ES case worked on this case with TS. But they're different cases. There's no alleged, uh, ritualistic abuse for TS, right? Hopefully they will see that everything was done by the book and they will just move forward in, in going to trial. That again is, is my, is my hope. Um, and like I said, David Lee Hamblin should be held accountable to at least show the people that Utah is listening, right? They're listening. They might not fully be on board with ritualistic abuse yet because allegedly a lot of people in power have been accused of participating.

I'm not saying that's true or that's false. I'm just saying that is what's out there, but I don't know if you agree with that. Like if they're smart, give the people what they want. The evidence is there. Take this man to trial once and for all. If you guys, you know, uh, make his case a race again. I mean, what does that say? Literally, what does that say? Yeah. And I think that they're taking the stance of let it make it go away is what it is.

My opinion. Because you have in the other cases, I, I did a video on this where you walk through and you're like, well, the judicial judiciary in the state of Utah looks like to me, uh, is preventing, you know, certain things are, they're not allowing certain prosecutors to take the case. Any prosecutor that would is now promoted to be a judge. I take it. Um, you have legislation in the state of Utah making ritualistic abuse illegal. How it's not already is insane. Yeah. Uh, and so last year, the bill passes committee.

typically the bill that passes committee goes to the floor. This one disappears, dies. There's another one that just came out this year that is tied to another bill that is very controversial. So it says that this bill that makes ritualistic abuse illegal only becomes law if it passes both the house and the Senate is signed by the governor. And this other bill does this goes to that same process. And so, which is totally rare. Very, you know, I'm confused and I'm sorry to interrupt you. I, I had discussed this because I had emailed, uh, Ken Ivory's office about the house bill 66, which he said that his intern said, it's just waiting for a signature from the governor.

And that house bill, which I was like, make this make sense. This bill trains law enforcement on how to identify ritualistic abuse and how to handle it and, and defines it as well. Yet 196 killed, which would criminalize it. So I'm like, I don't quite understand. So I did call the office to try to, uh, get an explanation to which I haven't gotten a response yet. Yeah. Is that the bill you're talking about 66 or is there a different one? So at the very last part of the bill, it says it's tied to another Senate bill that has to pass for this one to be, um, in effect. And this is it guys. Like, what is the fight?

What is the fight on this? And I'm genuinely asking like, what, who is harmed if a bill like this is passed? Who did like, is it going to bankrupt Utah? If this bill, no, it's not like, what, what is it going to do? Honestly, that's my question. What is the big deal? Just put together. It makes you kind of mix questions, right? Cause there's another bill. It died because of the controversy, but we have another Senator in the state that introduced a bill that said that, uh, if, if a sex offender requests to have his name removed from the sex offender, uh, offense list, um, you know, he can have that taken off where it's supposed to be for life.

And so it was, it's just, it's, yeah, it's crazy. Sorry. I like, I learn about these things and I'm like, well, I don't, it is. And, and listen, Utah freaks me out, Ben. I'm so sorry to say that. And I, I don't want to offend anybody because look, I live in New York. Okay. I know about corruption. I know like New York is its own beast. So I'm not sitting here on a high horse or anything.

I'm just saying Utah seems to be its own Island of misfits in, in this way that the Mormon church has a lot of money. They have a lot of power and it's very tough to go up against the Mormon church. It seems, um, I guess I just, I have just crazy issues here with David Lee Hamblin and how that has been handled. And I, I guess I'm thinking from a perspective of the government and possibly lawmakers and whoever else, if David Lee Hamblin is convicted, do they think he's going to start yapping? I don't think so. Because if he's convicted and taken a trial on this TS case, that has nothing to do with the quote unquote church of Satan or ritualistic abuse. This is just plain old nasty pedophilia. Right. So, um, like what guys, like think about that, that you'll be safe. Sorry.

That's Kate. You know what I'm saying though? Like whoever is involved in this, that is, is allegedly involved in this high up like that, you're going to be protected. Right. I mean, am I missing something? So if, so this goes back to, if the victim statements are true, that they protect each other in their crimes. And so, um, if, if, if it is true that they are part of a satanic network, um, then it make, what, what, what is happening makes more sense because why else would they be doing this? But if it, but if it is true, then it makes sense because, oh, they're protecting their fellow brothers in their crimes. And so, um, that's, but if it's not true, then what you're saying makes total sense. You're like, why, what's the problem?

Right. Like what, what is the problem? If, if he's just a plain old nasty pedophile and we're not even talking about, you know, I mean, it's just like, whatever. Well, you know, we'll, well, let's present the evidence to a jury. And if he's not guilty, they'll let him go. Exactly. Exactly. This is just the limbo state is just really unfair to so many people. I mean, look, including the defendant, including the defendant, let's be honest, because, um, you know, we're all entitled to a speedy trial and we're all entitled. So it's just like, it's, it's getting absurd, but, you know, namely, this is just horrifying on, on the survivors here.

And so, um, what, what do you say to people, Ben, that don't believe in ritualistic abuse? And, and what would you say to them to, to kind of let them know that, no, this is true. And this is why.

The, I just, I think, uh, Bishop pace lays it out very clearly is if it's not true, then how are all of these people getting together? And it's not just in Utah. Again, not the Glenn pace memo. We have the same exact stories being told with the Franklin coverup in Nebraska during this similar time period that were totally unrelated. Wasn't, you know, a part of national news until later. Wasn't like the Utah people could be copying the Nebraska people. Um, why are these same stories happening all over the place? Right. There's some kind of mass hysteria, something everybody's drinking some kind of crazy hallucinogen in the water. Um, something needs to be investigated if it's not actually happening because there's something influencing everybody to tell the same story.

And so there's a point, Ben, honestly. Right. Investigate that. Investigate why people would be saying the same thing and why they would be saying that this happened to them. I guess, you know, like we said before, it's a tough thing to prove at this point. If people are being hypnotized and then remembering, I can see why, you know, you would say this to someone off the street and they'd be like, get the fuck out of here. You know, excuse my language. They'd be like, get out of here with that, you know. But it's, you've got to look deeper. You've got to look, you've got to look further into it.

And, you know, it could possibly be that the perpetrator is somebody in a position of power. And I think that's the case a lot of the time. So it's tough people to come forward. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. There are stories that I've heard from police officers about people in power that because I don't have additional, you know, evidence or additional testimony saying the same thing, I can't come forward with it. But I believe it because why would this cop lie about it is my thought just on that thing. But yeah, because people in power are going to be able to do that. And we saw that with in the case over Nebraska, the Franklin cover up. And you have, was it Senator DeCamp from their legislature there did a deep investigation in it, wrote the book on it, showed who was involved in it.

And all of a sudden when this started to come out, all of a sudden, even though we have just stacks of information coming out, the police refused to investigate it. And you have media swooping in and immediately calling it satanic panic and saying that it was all fake. And it was all just all these people that didn't know each other somehow conspired together to come up with the same story. Because in the case in, with the Franklin cover up, none of them were involved. These repressed memories coming forward. These were just victims saying, this is what happened to me. Just like you have stuff happening in Utah. But the Franklin cover up has the same exact story of what's going on in Utah, but it's all just coming forward. And so the idea that this is all made up is just, to me, is a more far-fetched conspiracy theory than just taking things at face value. Yeah, that's a great point.

And I think that if the allegations are true, you know, with some of these incidents, they are so horrific, Ben, that I can see why these memories would have to be suppressed, truly. Because, you know, you read them and you're just like, I don't know how this person would be able to get out of bed every day. I don't know how they wouldn't. That's what I read. Yeah, I don't know how they wouldn't have taken their own life. And look, that is, you know, I read about T.S. and his siblings. And I believe two of them took their own life. You know, it's not, I believe, in my opinion, in my opinion, that they did based on their very sad obituaries. Because it wasn't spelled out. But I, you know, read between the lines there.

And, yeah, I think, I think that this is, this is tough, right? It's, this is going to be a tough case in general. Yeah. To push forward. In Utah specifically, I really do, considering what's happened. And, you know, I think the Hamblin daughters don't speak out anymore. They don't talk about the victim impact statement. And I'm sure there's a number of reasons behind why they don't. But, unfortunately, I think that has also helped defend David Lee Hamblin in a way, right? Yeah.

That his own daughters don't come forward and say, nope, we still stick to this. I think they've been shut down in court so many times that, I guess, how can they? But I don't know. What do you think? Well, that makes sense going along with what, again, what Glenn Pace said. If it's as deep as he says it is, then it would make sense that, hey, they're seeing this themselves. And the people that they've been able to name and that they've witnessed themselves in this process, they would say, well, why would I speak out if everybody involved is going to cover this up and maybe hurt me for speaking out? If that's, if those things are true, then that would make sense of why they're saying that.

And so, and the same thing, too, is why is it only David Hamblin and his ex-wife have been the ones charged? Why, if these same exact individuals have named other individuals, why only these people? Why are the people in government that have been named? Why are the people in other positions of power been named by these same victims, not had the same, you know, charges brought against them? That could then be, to me, it says that we have this process of, here's a low-level guy that we can name publicly that nobody knows about, doesn't have any position of power in government or religion. And then we can say, oh, these cases were dismissed. So anything that against him, obviously these other people are innocent as well. Yeah, I think David Lee Hamblin was a good target because he was sloppy.

I think that he already had, you know, he had already lost his law license, or I'm sorry, his license to practice therapy, right? Because he was caught basically sleeping with patients. He had the peyote thing. You know, he was accused of abuse and essay in court during the custody trial. I just feel like, yeah, he was an easy target. So with all of this corroborating evidence, I guess, and then the recording, allegedly, of him apologizing, and somehow still he's not, you know, it's insane. So, yeah, I think that they thought that this guy, oh, yeah, he'll be easy, and then we'll get it dismissed against him, whatever.

And, look, I have to dive into Rosie Hamblin's court papers, but I'm pretty sure E.S. was her accuser. So, unfortunately, I don't see this going very well either, the case against Rosie Hamblin. Yeah, which is, or Stevenson, whatever the hell her stupid name is now. You know, it is, it's really, it's troubling, Ben. It's troubling. Yeah, well, I mean, it makes sense because if David's innocent, then wouldn't she be as well? So, I mean, it would just, the logical conclusion is that it'll be, the same results will happen there as well. Yeah, and I think it's like, we've got to get to the bottom of this. I hear so many different things from locals in, you know, how certain people feel about the Utah County Sheriff's Office, how some people believe that Sheriff Mike Smith is amazing.

Some people don't. Some people have given me some connections between husbands and wives and governors and this. And, yeah, it's a lot. But you have to wonder here. I don't believe in coincidences. And the prosecutor misconduct, allegedly. The law enforcement misconduct, allegedly. It's just like, what are we supposed to think here? Yeah. There was a case a couple of years ago of a former congressman and a former attorney general attending the investigation of an individual that was accused of having child pornography on his computer.

And for some reason, this sitting congressman at the time goes to this low-level scene with the attorney general. And the attorney general contaminates, so-called contaminates the crime scene by taking photos with his cell phone. And all of a sudden, the attorney general's office has to drop the case because the attorney general contaminated the crime scene. And so we see these things at all different levels of what, to me, my opinion, appears to be purposeful contamination of the evidence to make sure that these types of crimes are protected. And we see it at every level. I mean, and that's an educated opinion because when you have an attorney general coming in and doing something like that, it's like, I'm sorry, honey. You're not coming in off the street. You're literally an attorney general. You know the rules. You know what to do here.

I mean, that's stupid. That's insane. And it just goes back to, like, you know, the disastrous 2022 press conference by David Levitt, which I swear, I think about this all the time, how it literally is the most insane thing I've ever seen in my life. I cover a lot of cases. I cover a lot of trials. I have never seen anything like this. So many contradictions in one 45-minute press conference between the, I don't really know the case. Oh, but she's tragically mentally ill. I'm not a suspect or a POI, but I don't know anything about the case because I haven't read it. I'm just like, which is it?

You know, like, it's mental, in my opinion. And murderers worth their salt comes out and says, I didn't do anything when nobody publicly accused you of doing anything. Except for a man who, let's just say it, multiple things can be true, a man who is a fugitive on the run, accused of rape, said all these things about you. He's the guy that leaked it. He didn't write it, but he leaked it, and he was the one saying all these things. So it's like, what, I mean. You talked about it. Nobody knew about it until the local news covered it. Wait, that's what I said, too. I said, what are the odds that most people are like, wait, what is he even talking about?

Nobody knew what he was talking about. Okay. And I say this all the time where, you know, content creators, journalists, podcasters will come out and do this whole post about how so-and-so said something about them. And, you know, this is ridiculous. And I'm just like, wow, I never would have even known unless you said this. Like, I never would have known what was going on. Because we know that the media, you know, it's like the cycle. It's two days and it's old news. Nobody would have known. Nobody.

But, yeah. Ben, this has been really enlightening. I really appreciate you talking to me about this. Again, I'm new. So, as I dig in further, I might call you back to have you on and answer some more questions if that's cool. Yes, please. Anytime. And how can people find you if they want to follow you and follow your work? Yeah. Treeoflibertysociety.com.

Treeoflibertysociety.com is the place to go. You can follow us on the YouTube and all of the different social medias. And I encourage you to check us out there. Okay. And I will have all of that in the episode notes as well, as well as a link to your book if people want to read that. So, yeah. Thank you so much for having this discussion with me. I've really enjoyed it. And it definitely has helped. So, I appreciate you.

Yeah. All right. Hang out for one second. I'm going to close this out. All right. Bye, guys. We'll talk soon. Bye