OBEYING GOD Or GOVERNMENT When Do We Say NO?

We recently covered the topic of a Christian’s duty to obey government in our documentary “Should Christian’s Submit to Government?“, covering the history, interpretations and application of such scripture as Roman’s 13.

Another large group of Christians, Latter-day Saints (aka Mormons), often interoperate their 12th Article of Faith to mean that they must do whatever the government tells them. Is that accurate?  Is that how the author of that Article of Faith and his immediate successors applied it?  What are the implications?

Check out the discussion below.

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TRANSCRIPT

Generates using A.I.; please forgive any mistakes.

Do we just obey the government no matter what? We're going to talk about the 12th article of faith. And by the way, Ben McClintock is back. Welcome to the Last Dispensation. You're living in it. Welcome back, brother McClintock to the program. I know you had some things going on in your life and you've been doing stuff with Tree of Liberty Society and I've been doing some things and projects and whatnot. Welcome back, Ben, to the program. Good to see you again.

Fantastic to be here. I always like when you wear your Farmer John shirt, your flannels. We got chickens. We got like 50 chickens, man. I do a little bit of farming. Yeah. Anyway, what are we talking about today? We're talking about, you know, do we, if we hide the Jews in our basements, do we got to tell the Nazi soldier when he knocks on our door? You almost made me do a spit take there.

You know, we have these things with, you know, mandates going on, you know, where, you know, they have these different requirements for masks back in the years ago. And, you know, they were talking about mandating people get vaccines to be able to keep their jobs and, you know, do we just do we just submit to the government no matter what? And so I wanted to give some context to the idea that the 12th article of faith says that we should do, you know, whatever the government tells us. And this is something in Christendom, not just in Latter-day Saint circles. I just did a documentary on, you can see it on our channel, on our, on the Tree of Liberty Society YouTube or on Tree of Liberty Society dot com about Romans 13, kind of just going the broad way of what did Paul mean when he wrote Romans 13?

When when Rome outlawed Christianity, did the apostles say, well, we got to obey the law. We better renounce Christ because it's the law. And so just kind of going through these nonsensical arguments that people make as an excuse not to do the right thing. And so I thought it'd be good to kind of bring that into the Latter-day Saint realm with the 12th article of faith, because there are some that apply that to mean the very exact same thing. And so I wanted to maybe give some background and some context. John Taylor has a great quote that I just love, where just totally kind of really puts this to bed.

And he says, he's asked the question, right? He says, then do you profess to ignore the laws of the land? Because he's, there are laws that he's ignoring. And he says, no, not unless they're unconstitutional, then I would do it all the time. And so, you know, he's saying that, you know, we're not obligated to just do whatever the government says, that there are bounds that are set. Well, it's interesting. I just want to add this real quick. A lot of people will argue the nuances there, right? Because you have Romans chapter 13, verses one through seven, that talks about submitting first Peter chapter two, verses 13 through 17.

But then you've got Paul and Acts talking about basically putting limits to that. So it's almost as though these men disagreed amongst themselves as well, but go ahead. Well, even their own application of it, Paul didn't just do whatever the Romans said. He didn't renounce Christ, even though he said you submit to the law. You go back throughout the history, right? Was Moses's mother evil because she refused to obey the law and allow Moses to be killed? Was Mary and Joseph evil because they didn't allow Jesus to be killed? They were breaking the law. Right. And so there are clear, you know, there if, and so I want to get into the background of, you know, Joseph Smith, he disobeyed the laws of the land.

And so what I think has happened culturally speaking is that we've added a word in there making the article of faith two clauses instead of one. And so, you know, it's, we read it to say, we believe in being subject to Kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates and in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. But that word and is not in there. And so it has, you know, without this coordinating, there's no coordinating conjunction between the two, the supposedly two clauses, only one clause. And so we change it to be that, but there's only one clause. The way that the article of faith is written in proper English, read in proper English and applied by the prophet Joseph and his successors clearly shows that there's only one clause.

What we believe in is being a subject to rulers as they are subject to the law. When the government violates the law, we are not subject to him. Right. Kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates, and obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. In their obeying and honoring and sustaining the law. Absolutely. So, you know, so you have a statement by the first presidency. So the, you know, this is doc, you know, if it's released by the first presidency that becomes doctrine. So July 7th, 1886, the first presidency comes out and says, whatever is contrary to the freedom guaranteed by the constitution, which includes not mere belief, but the free exercise of religion.

He does not command his people to obey, but says he shall do his will. And so they're giving more context. And then we have D and C, you know, you look at, uh, remember Alexander Donovan. If we remember that story about how Alexander Donovan was, um, ordered by the government by a superior officer to murder Joseph Smith and other leaders of the church. Yeah. Now today you'd have a lot of people say, well, I'm just, I'm just doing my job, just following orders. Um, it's not for me to decide what's constitutional or not, you know, we'll leave that up to the courts.

I've got to just follow orders. I've got to kill the prophet and we'll let the courts decide if that was the right order or not. And my superior will be in trouble if it was, uh, you know, if it was unconstitutional. No, each of us as individuals have a duty to decide what, you know, what is right and what is wrong. And if we are going to obey something wrong, are we going to today say that Alexander Donovan was wrong and that he should have killed the prophet and let the process roll out in the courts? Yeah, that would be absurd.

Of course we say that Alexander Donovan was correct and that he was going to hold, you know, he's like, I'm not going to follow your order. It's an illegal order. And if you end up doing it anyways, I'm going to then hold you accountable before a court. I'm not forced to do something that's wrong. I am as an individual accountable to God for what I do and what I don't do. And that's kind of what confuses me as far as the shadow governments, uh, or the not, I don't know if you would, what would you call the CIA and FBI? Those aren't really non-governmental. They're not NGOs because they're, they were formed by our government, but they are shadow governments I would say.

They work outside of the constitution and in secrecy. And so the reason I brought that into the conversation for a second is it can be very confusing when you think about if Kennedy, if the assassination of John F. Kennedy was an inside job, you've got some people over here justifying it saying, I'm obeying the laws of the land because my government told me we need to take out the leader of our free nation. You know, so I also think about if, if Trump was assassinated, would I, would that have caused civil war or some sort of civil unrest? And do I go, my conscious says I need to help in the rebellion against the government or do I wait for the church to tell me here's the green light or will the church ever do that?

What do you say about that? You know, did, did, did, and then you think about the, uh, the people that just decided to do things on their own as far as not following Joseph Smith's orders when things got crazy. Yeah. There's this balance that we have to take as personal people, right? We, we, we don't want to go, we're not sent on one hand, but we don't want to be slothful servants that are commanded in all things. And so it's this balance that we've got to figure out. And so, um, you know, we, we are accountable. We don't want to be slothful servants where we are.

And so we have to see what has the Lord revealed on things. And so like with obeying the law of the land, the law of the land, um, we have to understand what that really means. First of all, it's not just whatever the government says that they, if they go outside their bounds, they are the ones that are breaking the law. Um, DNC 98 identifies what the law actually is. The Lord in starting in verse five, he says, and that law of the land, which is constitutional. And then he has this comma where he then defines constitutional. So we don't, he's not saying, you know, Hey, go look and see what the Supreme court has said is constitutional or not.

He says, here's the definition. He says, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, especially if they're not responding to, to persecution, right? Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. Right? And so he says that the constitutional law of the land is those things that support freedom and maintaining rights and privileges. That's what's constitutional. And then he says, and it belongs to everybody and is justifiable before me and as pertaining to law of man whatsoever is, is more or less than this, meaning more or less than supporting principles of freedom and maintaining rights and privileges, anything more less than this comma of evil.

Okay. So right there, he just said it's evil. If it's anything more or less than that. And then in verse 11, he says, I give unto you a commandment that you shall forsake all evil. And so he's telling us to forsake anything that the government does that is more or less than protecting rights and privileges right there in the DNC 98, that's the Lord. And so that's the standard that I believe that we have set for us to be able to judge. Do I, uh, am I going where I'm not sent or am I not being a slothful servant and I'm doing things that the Lord has already told me to do that.

I don't need another revelation on. I just have to apply the ones that are already given to act. And what is ultimate allegiance to God? You know, and when laws conflict, divine commandment, prioritizing, prioritizing. And that's where I think people take, uh, even nationalism. I'm talking about good nationalism, um, out of context. You know, there is a time where we go, uh, I need to obey God. My allegiance is to the, the 10 commandments. My allegiance is to my heavenly father and Jesus Christ. And anybody or anything that goes against those things, they've lost their allegiance because they're the ones that have broken the laws of God.

And I no longer have any allegiance to that government that does that. Right. Is that it brother? Well I think, you know, just, we have this, this context, I think just that kind of wraps it up basically, but you have with the council of 50 and the kingdom of God that was being established, uh, Brigham Young explained that he's like, when we leave the United States, we're not going to go under their government anymore. And so I just wanted to kind of give that context of, they, they saw that in 1844 that the United States had already apostatized from the constitution. And so if we believe the Lord and DNC 98, we have to see where that goes and then how that applies.

And so when we see something happening, we can't just be blind followers and we need to kind of, does our logic lay out right? When we say, well, we just have to obey the law of the land. Does that really, we have to ask ourselves, honestly, are we making an excuse to not stick our necks out and to be a bunch of cowards or are we actually following a correct principle? Right. A peaceful response to persecution like we see in the book of Mormon where people were told to bear these burdens. But that's usually, would you say sometimes that might be a, okay, I know you kind of covered this already, but where is there a formula where we, we do this first and if that doesn't work, we do this.

There's not really a formula is there. But if you look in the book of Mormon, when did Alma and his people have to bear these burdens? Wasn't it after they were already wicked? Go ahead. Sorry. Oh no, you're absolutely right. First of all, it was the punishment for their wickedness, right? Just like ancient Israel when, um, during the days of Jeremiah, King Nebuchadnezzar was sent to punish the Israelites, basically God sent them there to do that.

And um, and so yes, there is a consequence for our actions, but if we've, you know, like I would say our generation, we've been born into the slavery brought to us by our forefathers. And so, um, it wasn't something that we did. It was just, you know, we're suffering for the sins of our fathers, the false traditions of our fathers. And so, um, are we going to do like a King Josiah and all of a sudden we read the law and we realize, oh my goodness, and we rent our shirts and we want to start doing the right thing. Right. You have to start applying correct principle and say, okay, you know, what, what, what is the, um, like you said, is this, do we forbear it?

And there's this balance, right? Of, I don't know, it's a balance, just understanding the distinction of you are in oppression on one hand, but that doesn't mean you obey them. It just means you're like, Hey, there's a consequence I'm in, I'm in bondage. And so if I do something, if I follow God, those that have me in bondage will punish me and I'm, am I willing to follow God no matter what the punishment is in, uh, in, in Rome when the early Christians, right, were under Roman leadership and the apostle Paul says, those that live a life in Christ Jesus will receive persecution. And so I think that, you know, we have, that's a way to judge ourselves. Are we, because we are in bondage.

And so if we are living a life in Christ Jesus, we will receive prosecution. And so if we're not, then does that mean we're not living a life in Christ Jesus and that we're just submitting to avoid problems in our own lives? Right. I mean, there's warnings and promises, right? You got promises. You don't keep those commandments. You have warnings, right? And you can read DNC 98 all the way to one Oh one. And it does, it includes warnings to the saints in Kirtland about pride, about covetousness, about, uh, first, you know, ask telling them they need to forsake their sins.

But it's interesting. You have to follow the spirit on these things, right? And, and, and sometimes you do this sometimes. So overall, what would be your, uh, synopsis on this? Like what is, what, what would, what, what do you bring away from this as far as Ben is concerned? What do you conclude? That you know, that we have to start to stick our necks out and be a little bit more brave because things are getting worse. And if we don't, so there's, um, in 1880 was 1888, there was a meeting of the, of the quorum of the 12 and the first presidency.

And they were discussing what are some things that we should do to get the government off of our back. And Joseph F. Smith stands up and says that, you know, if we capitulate anymore, there's going to come a point where we, you know, are, there's no more that we're in a basically in the second, a corner and there's nothing else for us to do. We've got, there's gotta be a line in the sand where we say this far and no further. So we have to draw the line and decide for ourselves that, you know, recognize the situation that we're in and that we're going to have to, Joseph Smith said that if the, if, if the saints want the kingdom of God, they're going to have to take it. And so if we're going to start moving in that direction again, we have to start taking bold steps that will put ourselves in, uh, in certain risks and a certain, you know, certain situations.

And we have to ask ourselves, are we willing to suffer for the glory of God and start to make ourselves uncomfortable, whether it's something small, you know, um, going back to what was kind of the most obvious thing is it, are we willing to, um, not wear a mask at the grocery store? Because if, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it might seem like a small thing, but when you capitulate with this, then you capitulate the next thing and you capitulate to the next thing and then so on. And then you say, oh, I'm going to put a poison into my arm because I want to keep my job. And then all of a sudden, what other thing are you going to do? You just have to deny Christ and then you can go get food for your family.

Well, I've got to feed my family. Um, you know, I've got a responsibility for them, so I better just do that. Even though I don't believe it, I'll just lie and get my family food. You know, where is the line in the sand that we're going to have and recognize that and then start to take more ground and move ourselves in a position where we're actually starting to show that we're overcoming the sins of our fathers and wanting to take the kingdom back like Joseph said. I couldn't have said it better myself. That's why you're here. Anything else, brother?

I think that covers it. I hope folks that they have questions or comments or, you know, any kind of, uh, why I'm wrong to put them in the comments below. And um, I would say capitulation to government authority is not always the absolute mandate for members of the church as well as Christians. Um, but be careful. Be wise. We are under tyranny. Um, thank you so much, brother. Oh, and don't forget tree of Liberty society is the place where this man that's his abode.

That's right. Hang out. That's his hangout. He and I don't always see eye to eye on everything, but we are good friends and we come together. We meet in the middle, right? We've got the east wing and the west wing and he and I meet in the middle. All right. Thank you, brother. God bless. God bless.