Member Training – Civil Government & Natural Law

Member training from December 1st, 2025.

Tonight, Ben led a discussion on the true nature and purpose of government, arguing it is fundamentally an ordinance of God, not a secular invention. He stressed that government is force, like fire, and its only legitimate role is to protect the God-given, unalienable rights of life, liberty, and property by punishing the wicked and defending the good. We analyzed how the Declaration of Independence affirms this by referencing the “laws of nature and of nature’s God,” and concluded that any attempt to secularize government is a wicked act that turns the state into an idol, making it the arbiter of rights instead of their protector. The central takeaway for everyone was the duty to understand these divine principles to recognize when government has become illegitimate and to know when their obligation shifts from obedience to active resistance, such as nullification, interposition, or even the destruction of the tyrannical idol.

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TRANSCRIPT

Heavenly Father, we're grateful to meet together once again as promoters and defenders of truth and liberty. We pray for the Holy Ghost to be with us tonight. Help us take these things to heart, to take action in whatever ways are necessary so that we can spread the message and bring others into the fold here with us, that we can begin to increase the knowledge of these things of truth and liberty all across the land. And we ask this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

I wanted to bring your attention again to the book that we have just produced and is now available on our website with paperback, e-book, audio book. Both on Amazon and in Barnes & Noble, the paperback and the e -book are available. If you order them directly from those two places, you will get them faster than if you order them from our website, except for the e-book and the audio book, of course. If you order the paperback, I should say. the because they have the methods of being able to do quick deliveries that we don't have um but if you want the ebook or the audiobook feel free to do that at the uh at our website um so just yeah mark go ahead can you give us the price of each form of the book yeah so it's it's ten dollars roughly uh for the paperback and five bucks for the ebook and five bucks for the audiobook thank you yep we we don't want We want to make this something that's easy to distribute.

I don't want to have any reason why somebody is going to have a barrier to entry on this book. I believe that it's a very, very important book for us to understand its principles. Obviously, some of the more controversial aspects of the book are not things that we are implementing as an organization. at least currently. But they are important nonetheless. If we don't understand these things, then when the time is right, we will not take the correct action. And not only that, if we don't understand the principles in this book, we won't understand tyranny. We won't understand liberty. These ladies laid out those principles of natural law that we're really going to get into tonight in a way that you don't find in a lot of other places. And in this short of a treatise, Discourses on Government by Algernon Sidney discuss natural law, but it's 500 pages.

Same thing with Cato's Letters. It's two volumes, 500 pages each. And so this makes the principles of natural law quickly and easily accessible. And so we can really start to grasp those things and share them with others. And that's what we want to do is not only to have you get a copy of these things, but we would love it if you got copies of these things for all of your friends and family so that we can start to build the understanding of the principles of natural law. So next, I want to talk about another promotion that we have going on. If you go to the website and you click on the membership tab, we have the first thing is we have a 30 day free membership. uh availability and we also have the ability to give a free gift membership and so if you people want to if you got friends and family that you know of that would benefit from being a member of the tree of liberty society that is now an available option on the website and or just letting people know your friends and family know that hey you can become a member and you can check it out for a month to see if it's something that's right for you and with no obligation no charge as long as you cancel within the first 30 days And so that's an option for you to be able to share with others or to be able to use yourself.

Any questions on that? Yes, Ben. Is that for the month of December or is it beyond the month of December? So for the entire month of December, you can sign up for that, but it's 30 days from whenever you sign up. So if somebody signs up on December 31st, they will have it until... january 31st does that make sense so the last day to sign up is december 31st right correct for the free month correct and then we also have something that's very beneficial if you want to switch over from your monthly membership we have yearly memberships uh that can that also save you money um over a monthly membership and so that helps us to be able to have a little shot in the arm to be able to do things as well so I encourage you to check that out and share it with your friends and family.

Again, what we do every week, we want to not be the reason for perishing because of our lack of knowledge. I want to encourage you all to use our book list and our video list that we put out and is available in the member portal of books that you should be reading, videos that you should be watching. so that you can build your knowledge even outside of our weekly trainings. And then, of course, understanding the context with everything that we talk about is to build understanding and adherence to the principles that have built free nations, expose the satanic conspiracy, and build an effective resistance to that conspiracy. Okay, so what I want to get back to, again, this might seem very basic to all of us. And what is civil government, right? Usually and typically in training, we get into things that are not maybe so basic.

But again, I hope to be able to go over, go after these things or go over these things from an angle that will be new and that will help make connections that weren't made before so that you can be more effective in teaching others. So this quote is a government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. So this is a quote that is most often attributed to George Washington, but it is actually not in any of his writings, letters, anything that he wrote or said. But I believe that it is a true statement, and that's why I shared it, but not with George Washington's picture next to it because he didn't actually say it. So we're also going to correct some. some falsehoods but also realizes it's a true principle and I use this picture on the left it's a picture of the casting out of Satan and his followers after the war in heaven and so we have in Revelations chapter 12 where Michael and his angels fight against Satan and his followers and they are cast out of heaven and so God does use force. He says, you're not allowed to be here. We have freedom of association in heaven, and we're going to use force to cast you out. And so as evil uses force to enforce its will, to be able to protect good, you have to use a righteous dominion.

And so government, good government, bad government, to be able to enforce those principles, at times it has to use force. And so an example of that would be like if you're a murderer, we have to use force to stop you. If you're going to hurt somebody or damage their life, liberty, and property, and you won't stop on your own, force has to be used. And so it's important for us to recognize that force isn't bad in and of itself. It's what is force used for. There's godly force as much as something that Satan uses. So along these lines, we have what to answer the question of what is government. The next book that we're going to publish, Manet to Cal, The Downfall of Tyranny.

We read government is an ordinance of God for the right ordering of a commonwealth or a government. That government is an ordinance of God is so clear from the abundant testimony. which the scriptures give thereunto, both in the Old and New Testament, and so universally acknowledged by all sober and rational persons. So this is an important aspect of government that you don't really hear people talk about because they want to be inclusive and they want to be ecumenical. They want to include people that are maybe atheists and whatnot. But I'm going to get into why it's important that we don't. But this is something that it's universally acknowledged, he says, by all sober and rational persons, that government is an ordinance of God that is essential for us to understand. Because when we leave that principle, it leads to a problem. So the political spectrum, as we see here, is we have on one side, you have total government, and then you have no government.

And if you've seen movies like film, Films like The Making of America, not The Making of America, sorry, Overview of America, it talks about this, how you have on one side you have no government where you'd have anarchy. And then on the total government side, you have things like fascism, communism. And this is the only really true political spectrum that you can go after is comparing the power of government. Because, you know, the conspiracy likes to promote the idea on one side you have fascism and on the other side you have communism but there's no real distinction right that there's how is that one is one right and one is one and the other one's left that makes it it's not helpful when you put it in those terms because you're just like one authoritarian for another how is that a different part of the spectrum and so government power is really the only helpful spectrum that you can have is total government on one side and no government on the other and so obviously if government is an ordinance of god You know, government is not wicked of itself. And so you would have these two false dichotomies of total government versus no government.

But both of those would be an abomination of an ordinance of God. And so we see here the results of too much government power where you have mass murder. And then on the other side, where you have too little government power, you have... that people's property aren't protected as well. And so we have this principle that too much government or too little government, no one is safe in their life, liberty, or property. When you're in either one of those situations, you are not safe in your life, liberty, or property. And so that's why God instituted government as an ordinance was to be able to protect what he gave you, your life, your liberty. and your property. And so the key, though, is enough government to protect your life, liberty, and property, but not enough government to be able to take your life, liberty, and property.

That is a balance that is an application of the ordinance that is godly. And when you do not stick within those bounds, you become... You bastardize or you have a counterfeit to a godly ordinance. And so going back to Manetakal or the downfall of tyranny, we learn another important principle of government. It says the ends or ends of this great ordinance called government is the glory of God and the good of the people. And so that's an important aspect of natural law. It's an important aspect of what the ordinance of government is. And so that way we can distill what is government in its proper role. When has it gone beyond its proper role? And when has it not lived up to its proper godly role?

That's something that I've really gotten away from is calling it the proper role of government because it makes it a secular thing and not a godly ordinance. And so I believe we need to start referring to it as the godly role of government and if we understand that what in in that aspect as an ordinance of god and so there's the godly role of government then we will recognize better when it is violated or when it is not lived up to and so we've learned here with this is magistrates meaning government officials are the ministers of god or his servants so if it is a godly government Then those that are in service in the government, they are ministers of God. They are servants of God. And now a servant honoreth his master, and they being by their office servants of God, are bound in their several places to seek how they may honor and glorify him. So if you are a legitimate servant of God in the ordinance of government, Your job is to honor your master, which is God.

Okay, so these offices are servants of God, bound in their places to seek to honor and glorify God. So if you can see in government today, does this person in government, do they honor God? Do they seek to glorify God? Do they see themselves as God's servant? And if they don't see themselves and they don't act as that, then they are acting as a servant for Satan. You're either serving God or you're serving Satan. And so we can see people in government today, and when they are not acting in this way, they are acting outside of the bounds of their authority. Yes, Mark? Do you think it's accurate to say that... of God, because that's a term that's up for debate.

What is glorifying? But do you think it's accurate to say following and complying with God's law is glorifying him? That's the only way you can glorify God, right, is by obeying him and following his laws. And so that because, yes, I totally agree with you that there are people that believe that there are different ways to glorify God. And that goes back to the natural law principle that we've talked about many, many times, illustrated by Samuel Pufendorf of the importance of people being in perfect agreement so that they don't clash. And so that's why we see the clashing that we see in society today is because we are not united on those principles and that we have to understand and unite on those principles. Otherwise, we will see the problems that we have today. And that's why the founding fathers all talked about unifying on those correct principles. So we look at the Declaration of Independence. It lays out principles of just the right amount of government.

What makes it an ordinance of God? And when is it not an ordinance of God? It says to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them. This right here is one of the most misunderstood concepts, principles that are out there, if they're even claimed to be understood at all. I've been doing this for 25 years. And in the 25 years of doing this, the amount of people that even pretend to think they know what natural law means is minimal. And then amongst those that claim to, it is even smaller. And so this is something that should be focused on more. And I'm hoping to word it in a way tonight that will help click for us because it is so misunderstood or not understood at all. And I'm going to mention this a little bit later as well, is that when they're saying this, they are...

They are saying the same thing that I said before, that government is an ordinance of God. The Declaration of Independence is saying that government is an ordinance of God. And so anybody that claims to appreciate the Declaration of Independence but doesn't recognize it as an ordinance of God is either lying or completely ignorant of what the Declaration of Independence actually says. So laws of nature and of nature of God, this is natural law. We've asked the question before, what is natural law? Where is it written? And who decided it? So when we think of laws, we think of things that are past, but gravity would be a natural law. When you throw a ball up in the air, it's going to fall down.

But who voted on that? If we all in this call, we all voted on and we unanimously came to the conclusion, that balls will no longer fall around us because we've all unanimously voted. So around us, because we voted on it, balls will no longer fall. Would that change what happened to balls when we threw them up in the air amongst us? No, that does not change. It doesn't matter. So it's something that is unchangeable. No matter what man tries to do, it doesn't change that law. We can break ourselves against the laws, but we cannot change the laws. And we can act outside of the bounds that God has set for the ordinance of government, but now we are breaking that law.

And we will receive the consequences for breaking that law, which we see now in society is the consequence for breaking the ordinance of God called government. We can make things more comfortable and more smooth by conforming better to those laws, but those laws don't change just because technology changed and time changed. So Cicero lays out his own definition of natural law, the laws of God. He says, law, therefore, is what distinguishes right and wrong derived from nature herself. the most ancient principle of all things to which the laws of men direct themselves when they impose penalties on the wicked and protect and defend the good. Okay.

So Cicero obviously was not somebody would be considered a pagan, I think by most, if not everyone, maybe even himself. He says that this, that law is what makes right and wrong and that it, He penalizes the wicked and defends the good. And so even though he would not be called a Christian, he recognizes that true law is an ordinance of God because that is what decides what is good and what is wicked. And you can follow what is good and stay away from what is wicked even if you are not a follower of Christ. If you identify a correct principle and you follow it, you will read. the benefits of following that law. And so he recognized that law is what is eternal in nature. And it is an ancient thing. It is something that is eternal. And that the laws themselves impose penalties on wicked and protect and defend good.

And so when law does not penalize wickedness and does not defend good, you are now no longer in ordinance of God. And you are an ordinance of evil. And you will reap the consequences of being an ordinance for evil. And we can see that in Rome. That's exactly what happened. As they got away from this and they became a licentious and wicked society. And that government became a defender of wickedness and a penalizer of goodness. We see how it degraded into the mess that it was at the very end of the Roman Empire. And so you recognize. this eternal principle. But in more of a Christian definition, we find in Algernon Sidney's Discourses on Government.

And he says that is not the law of nature a rule which he, meaning God, has given to things. And the law of man's nature, which is reason, an emanation of the divine wisdom. or some footsteps of divine light remaining in us. So this is Algernon Sidney attempting to define, give a definition for natural law. Now, it's very much in line with what Cicero said. He's saying the same thing, but he's wording it, and he's putting it in his own words. And so essentially, What we see there is even though these guys are separated by thousands of years, they still recognized the same principle because they recognize that they can't change natural law. They cannot change the laws of God regarding government. Now, and we're not even talking about the laws of God regarding that you read in maybe the law of Moses or the Ten Commandments.

Even the laws of government do utilize many of those laws because they, They apply to government, to that ordinance of God. And so even though they were worded slightly different, they are both the same definition of what natural law is. And so looking at what all these individuals, as they agreed on what natural law is, I wanted to word it in a way that would be maybe easier for us in our day and in our vernacular to understand. And so in modern terms, natural law is the unchanging laws that govern man and the universe and are unchanging, unchangeable. And are found in the revelations of God. And through the reason of man. As it conforms to the revelations. And so that applies. So natural law doesn't just apply to government. Natural law does apply to every aspect of our lives. The things that we might consider science. Things that we consider to be civic. The things that we consider to be religious. Whatever it is. They apply God's law. applies to all of them.

And so it is up to us to discover through the revelations of God and using our reason in compliance with God's word to learn what those laws are regarding the ordinance of governance or whatever it is, right? If we want a blessing, we have to find the law that it is predicated upon. And that does not just apply to our personal everyday interactions. That applies to the ordinance. government and so here's another example of natural law sodomy isn't just wrong because the scriptures say so sodomy doesn't reproduce the species which is the reason for marital relations therefore it is against the laws of nature it violates natural law as we read in the scriptures right the reason we look in genesis that marriage was for the multiplying and replenishing the earth. And so when you engage in those relations in a way that does not multiply and replenish the earth, you are violating the laws of nature, which means you are violating the laws of nature's God.

And so it's not just because God said so. Even if we haven't come to a point where we understand why something is so, if God has said so, we can trust it to be true, of course. But we can look to that there is actually a reason. Even if we haven't discovered the reason, we can say, okay, God said so, I should obey it. But with every single law that we can find given to us, we can find an actual, legitimate, real reason for it. And so it's important for us to be able to say, okay, that is true and I can trust in that, even if I might not understand it. And so when we talk about the evils of the sodomite supremacy movement, We can break it down and boil it down to that in addition to it being a sign and token of the conspiracy, but it is also a violation of natural law. So going back to the Declaration of Independence where it talks about it, even though it doesn't define natural law, it doesn't say natural law is this, as we saw from Cicero and from Algernon Sidney, it references it and gives us clues to it.

And so we read in the Declaration of Independence that to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them. Well, how do we know the laws of nature's God if we don't have a way to figure them out or to learn them, right? And so it's referring to God in the Declaration of Independence. That's where these laws come from. And that's where these positions and these stations that we have originate. And so we hold these, because of that, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.

So they knew, even though they didn't list what the laws of nature and of nature's God are, they gave you, well, they didn't define, I'm sorry, even though they didn't define what it was, They give you a list of a few things that are included within it to help you understand. And that you are endowed by, one of those things is that you are endowed by God with unalienable rights, with unviolatable rights. Yes, Mark, go ahead. Mark? Okay, you're not muted. You're not unmuted. So it's important for us to understand what is being said here. And so that we can recognize that the Declaration of Independence is actually a religious document. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Tell me again the word. Go back one screen. Yeah. Okay. Unalienable. You substituted another word. And I like that word. Unviolatable. Unviolatable. Thank you. Yep. Yes, Mark. I'm sorry, I muted myself earlier.

Yeah, nationals is a right that you are born with. So it is, as you say there. But Cicero, what helps me understand this, makes it real simple, is that Cicero, when he talked about good law defense, good law is a defense of nature. When you say that to the average American, they're thinking about the earth. They're thinking. not thinking about man's nature and what we're into here the declaration of independence is a part of natural law concerning man man's nature so that's part of the overall definition you gave us uh natural law unchanging laws that govern man and the universe but we're not talking about the universe here you know like the responsibility to be good stewards and things like that we're talking about man's nature Do you agree on that or does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

And that's why there's different ordinances, right? And government is one of those ordinances because it has that separate distinction, that aspect of the laws of God. Can I add just one more point here that's in the declaration? Man's nature, basically, the fundamentals for us to exist. And so for us to exist, that nature is that we need to, consume food or energy. We need to consume water. We need shelter, ideally medicines. Those are fundamental. So all of these right-sided here are essential to that man's nature, right to life, liberty, property. So I'll leave it at that, but I want to be sure that's clear that he was talking. Those rights are essential to man's nature for man's existence. Yep. And it's not there because he said so. This is, you know, Thomas Jefferson, the author, the main author of it. It was approved by, of course, all the signers. But these were things that they understood because they read the Bible. They knew what nature's God had revealed.

And these were the things that God had said was given by him to every one of us. And so that's important for us to understand that aspect and that they laid out in there is that it is God that gave you those unviolatable rights. That's an essential thing to understand. I'm sure we've all heard it before where do rights come from, God or government. But if we don't understand that government is an ordinance of God and that ordinance of God is to be a servant of God, going to make it secular and godless, that means it is no longer an ordinance of God, which means it is now the arbiter of what your rights are, because it is the thing that gives it to you, as opposed to the thing that protects it as its role as God's servant. Mark? Yeah, and the easiest way to understand that is realize that God gave us our nature. So if God gave us our nature, then we have a responsibility to protect that. being that nature. And that's why we need these rights of life, liberty, and property. Thank you.

So the Declaration of Independence, again, it's a religious document. We have to understand that. It is something that is laying out what we've said before. It is in the scriptures. It is saying that these things were from God to man. that these same men read those things that we've referenced before, Algernon, Sidney, that they read Cicero, that they read things like Manetakel, that they read the scriptures. The scriptures are what the founding fathers in the ratification meetings in each of the states quoted the most. And in their defense of the constitution, the scriptures are what they quoted the most. And so to try and make the constitution and try to make the Declaration of Independence and try to make government secular is completely and utterly wicked. It is trying to displace God and trying to impose God, the government as God, right?

Because you cannot separate God from legitimate government. When you separate God from government, it is the government is no longer an ordinance of God. Therefore, it is now illegitimate according to Not just me and not just according to these natural thinkers, but according to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. They all recognize that government is an ordinance of God and therefore to separate God from government is wickedness. So we go on again. So look at what is the Declaration of Independence saying are the things that we can read and understand from the scriptures. These things are self-evident, they said. Another word for today would be obvious. That our rights come from God, that those rights are life, some of those rights are life, liberty, and property.

And that government was created by the people to protect those rights that were given from God. It is an ordinance of God to protect these things that God gave us. That government gets its authority to exist from the people or from God. And that, well, even if it's from God, we look at the Old Testament. And even with examples of David or Daniel, where those individuals were made the king over the people by revelation, they were still presented to the people for their approval and for their approbation that they would sustain and support them. And so the scriptures are clear that government gets authority from the people as an ordinance of God. And so if rights, again, as I've said before, come from government, there is no limit to their power. If government is anything else but an ordinance of God to protect those things, to be his servant, to do those things that its role is, is to protect and to defend goodness and to punish wickedness, there is no limit to its power.

And that is why they want to remove God from government. They become God then. When they remove God from government, government becomes the idol to be worshipped. And then government is the distributor of your rights. And then you worship it to be able to get the things that you want. We want the ability to travel. We will submit to government and pay them a fine, a fee to be able to use our property to be able to travel. We want to be able to feed our families. then we will submit to the requirements of government for the right to be able to feed our families. And so now government has become the idol to be worshipped and given tribute to instead of God. And so when someone tries to secularize government, we have to understand what it is that they're actually doing. I hope we've laid out a very clear argument for what is going on when they secularize government. They are attempting to be a law to themselves. Which means they are then trying to take away your liberty. Because they're saying that, no, God didn't give you these things. We did. Because we are the law. They are no longer a servant to God.

They are a servant to themselves. They are a law unto themselves. And they are getting you to worship them as God. So with that, I hope we've made more clear what the godly role of government is. why it's important for us to understand the origin of these things, what natural law really is, and so that we can know when it's not, and what liberty really is. Because you will have some people in libertarian circles talking about the sodomite supremacy agenda, saying, I don't have the right to tell you as an individual who you can love, and so that means government can't. But when we understand that government is an ordinance of God and not of man, then we can understand what government's role is along those lines of punishing evil and enforcing and in being as an arbiter of God's law, natural law, and that we are to support righteousness as opposed to, of course, punishing it. So, Rod, you have a comment? Yeah, I just wanted to say that it's really interesting what you're talking about because I feel like the more wicked we are as a people, the longer we endure being ruled over by a wicked government.

So the more that we seek after God and seek to do his will, the more discontented we'll be with the wicked government. So I think that's just a little bit telling about the situation we're at currently in the world, right? Yeah. Well, because we have this lie, like if you grew up with the idea of the 12th article of faith saying that we are subject to government no matter what, or if you grew up with the idea that Romans 13 says that we are to obey government no matter what, we don't realize what government is at that point. And that if it's an ordinance of God, that totally flips on its head what its role is. as opposed to this idea that it's an idol to be worshipped. And it gives us to that discontent that you mentioned. I completely agree with you. Mark? Yeah, three quick points. If the secular world determines what government's going to do or not do, there's no limit to it.

There's nothing to put checks on it to take us into totalitarianism at the end of that spectrum. Secondly, there's no argument. that god created a nature and man where the rectum was to be used for sodomy. Its entire physiology is completely different, so you can't argue that point. Nature says that's an exit, yes. And lastly, I think this is the easiest way to understand what I've been trying to say here, and you've been trying to say, are in the old rites that the founding fathers, and everybody needs to know, it wasn't just Jefferson. Those words weren't just Jefferson. all 56 signers of the declaration independence agreed with those words they reviewed every provision in the declaration before they each state uh voted on it and you know no state voted against the declaration but inalienable rights protect people based on their nature and if they protect people based on their nature thus rights protect our survival nature.

And I think that's a really important way of saying, tying natural rights into what those 56 men said in the Declaration there. And additionally, it gets into the other principle of nullification, interposition and tyrannicide. If we understand that government is an ordinance of God. and we want to worship him and not government, then we will know when it is our job to nullify. We will know when it is our job to intercede or to go the ultimate route of tyrannicide. And we will know when each of those is appropriate because we are understanding the ordinance. When we don't understand that ordinance, we, again, as Rod was alluding to, we put up with the idol. We obey the idol.

We worship the idol. And as opposed to saying, no, I am not going, I'm going to do what Gideon did and I'm going to destroy the idols. I'm going to do what, yeah, I'm trying to think, it was Isaiah that destroyed Isaiah. Oh, I'm trying to, the one that went off in the chariot. I'm trying to, I'm having a blank. Elijah. We will be like Elijah where we destroy the idols. And so we will look at those examples of when the ordinance of God was changed and violated, and so we will destroy it in the appropriate manner, in the appropriate time, whichever one of those three that it is. And so if we don't understand that, then we will not nullify. We will not interpose. And we will simply submit to the idol and we will worship the idol. And so it's important all around to recognize what government is so that we know when it's doing the right thing, because that's when we should obey. If it is an ordinance of God, we should obey it, even if we don't like what it's doing.

But if it is not acting as the ordinance of God, we have a duty to behave in another way. Mark, yeah. I don't know if I ever shared this before, but I think it's really important. When you read those words in that Declaration of Independence that you're reviewing here about governments instituted to protect our inalienable rights, it doesn't say government. It says governments. In other words, all governments. That includes the state government. That includes your local government. The only purpose is their institute to protect these rights based on our nature. uh so what that means that kind of sounds like it disagrees a little bit with madison when madison said you know talked about the new in the federal newspapers enumerated uh rights of powers are enumerated in the constitution and they have no right to go beyond that you know the tenth amendment and so forth and uh but he also talked about the states uh being unlimited i'm not sure exactly the words are used so the the states based on what So in the context, I don't think they disagree because you have these 13 sovereign nations giving authority to this new entity, not really a new government, but this new entity that was given authority to do certain things, whereas the states were then reserved.

They didn't have the reservations that were limited to the federal government. So the federal government doesn't have unlimited powers even to act as a servant of God. The full power to act as a servant of God was reserved to the states. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. The states are separate sovereigns. Right. What Jefferson, those founders, wrote in the Declaration of Independence says all governments are limited to that purpose, that purpose, that rule. So there is a bit of a conflict there. And I side with the Sanders. I don't think there's really that big of a conflict because the context is the separate roles. But I mean, as a general rule, a real government, because the federal government was not a government over the states. And so it didn't apply to that context of what we read. Remember what I said at first? He said they said governments. He didn't say the federal government. He said, you know, it's implicit that they're talking about all governments, state, local, other countries, everything.

Well, sure. But context, I think, matters as well. So let's go ahead and close up, have a closing prayer. I hope that wording things in this way, kind of shifting the paradigm a little bit, has helped to make some light bulbs go off, to have some aha moments. about what is the real godly role of government and what is government and so that we can start to defend correct principles and not only that ourselves but to then teach those principles to others so i hope that we've helped in that tonight and we'll have a closing prayer simon would you give that for us?

Father in Heaven, thank you so much for this day thank you for thy goodness unto us please watch over and protect us as we go our separate ways this evening please Bless us with thy spirit. Please comfort us in how to defend our liberties. Show us how we may do better where we are lacking. Please bless our families wherever they are. They will be inspired alongside us. We ask a special blessing upon progress of the building of thy kingdom. Ask to be inspired in how we may build it better. Build it the way that would have us build it. Again, we love thee, Heavenly Father, and we are so grateful for thee. We offer this prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.