Member Training – Calling Evil Good and Good Evil

Member training from August 18th, 2025.

In this meeting, Moses presented on the theme of misunderstanding good and evil, drawing from scripture, church history, and modern examples to show how false selflessness and counterfeit love can be used to justify wickedness and even tyranny. We considered how figures like Laman and Lemuel, or Lucifer himself, cloaked rebellion in false compassion, and how modern society often disguises evil—whether through welfare, abortion, or “inclusive” slogans—as benevolence. I contrasted this with the Savior’s own seemingly harsh but truly loving actions, like cleansing the temple, and with Moroni’s uncompromising defense of liberty. Discussion afterward emphasized that true righteousness often appears offensive to the world but is in fact the purest form of love, while worldly “kindness” is often just enabling sin. We concluded by stressing the need for discernment, courage to call out evil even when it offends, and a firm commitment to God’s laws as the only safeguard of liberty and truth

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TRANSCRIPT

Heavenly Father, we're grateful to be here once again. We ask you to bless us with thy spirit. Guide and direct us in all that we do, all the things that we study, and guide us in our efforts of outreach to. Share the things that we know with others that are around us. We say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Take it away, man. This presentation was sort of rushed, so I hope no one hates it. I also changed the title. okay good to be more fitting anyways um this presentation is on misunderstanding good and evil um purpose of the tree of liberty is to build understanding of and adherence to the principles that have built free nations to expose the satanic conspiracy and to build an effective resistance to that conspiracy um i'm going to be going over examples of people having feigned selfless selflessness or they pretended selflessness and examples of true selflessness even though they might seem selfish um what's um i'm just gonna skip that so firstly if i layman and lemuel are bickering about to nephi about him building a ship because they just can't shut up about anything and they seem to make a pretty good point and say we knew you could not construct a ship for we knew that you were lacking in judgment wherefore thou canst not accomplish so great a work and thou art like unto our father led away by the foolish imaginations of his heart yea he hath led us out of the land of jerusalem and we have wandered in the wilderness for these many years And our women have toiled, being big with child, and they have born children in the wilderness, and suffered all things, save it were death.

And it would have been better that they had died before they came out of Jerusalem, than to have suffered these afflictions. Behold, these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions, and the land of our inheritance. Yea, and we might have been happy. And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people. So they kept the statutes and the judgments of the Lord and all his commandments according to the law of Moses. Wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people. And our father hath judged them and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words. Yea, and our brother is like unto him. So they start complaining about how it's not just them that suffer against their wives and their children.

Nephi's wife and children too, probably. Or definitely. And they use that as a leeway and then they definitely get into how they're suffering. These many years we have suffered in the wilderness. And then they try to justify the people that they know are going to be destroyed according to the scriptures. And we also have this Willard Richards article. So this is Willard Richards in the millennial story. Jesus offered to redeem all who would repent and keep a celestial law. Lucifer, a younger brother, offered to save all. Jesus' offer was accepted by the Father, and Lucifer's was rejected. And yet, Lucifer's proposition appeared so plausible, so much more liberal, noble, benevolent, and kind-hearted, that one-third part of the sons of God believed it and joined Lucifer's standard. This was what made division in heaven and war followed. Lucifer with one third of the spirits of heaven, which he drew around. Murder case in Ohio and Idaho. We've got their audio on.

About their loved ones before the court today and addressing the evil killer who took four precious souls. We are so sorry for the pain. Alan, turn your stuff off, Alan. Okay. This curse came through imbibing and exercising a false spirit. a sympathizing spirit, a spirit that will sympathize with misery or punishment when misery is justly due by punishment. Lucifer made his followers believe that he was a far more tender-hearted and merciful being than Jesus and got all he could to help him sympathize for the miseries that must follow the abominable crimes of men on the earth. And they want it for salvation anyhow, right or wrong.

They were so good, so holy, and so benevolent they could do... they could not do otherwise so they there's this thing going around where people don't their false um niceness where it seems good on the surface but you look deeper at all just look at i mean look a little bit deeper and you can tell the problems with any man's philosophy in the world you're just asking for examples what is that so you can tie it something i'll stop saying there are multitude of such benevolent souls on the earth in the present day men may lie steal swear get drunk then murder and shed innocent blood for which there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come. And yet there are men in abundance on the earth who are possessed of the same holy benevolence with their father Lucifer, who will pray over them, exhort them to repentance, petition the governor to pardon them, and do all in their power to save them from the punishment decreed by the laws of heaven.

They are so sympathetic, have so much kind-hearted feeling, so full of Christian benevolence, disinterested benevolence, they would save the rascals from punishment if possible. They can't bear to have their poor fellow creatures suffer so much. It is too bad. Such conduct is the disinterested benevolence of which the world is so full and boasts so much. These fake Christians that just allow sodomy and all these other abominations and they just don't read the scriptures. They don't understand God. And there's Also, these examples of seemingly rude actions that have, I think, deeper meanings. And John and Mark. Just keep going. And the Jews passed over his hand, and Jesus went out to Jerusalem and found in the temple those that had sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting, and when he had made a scourge of small cords. He drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.

And Mark, same account, And Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves, and would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? But ye have made it a den of thieves. So these guys are just doing business in the temple. And he whips them. And he would not allow any to come into the temple with their vessels. Excuse me. This is Mark. Is there any possibility you could put the speaker closer to you or speak louder?

uh it's hard to even read your words because i'm trying to hear you at the same time i'm trying to read but if you could speak somehow increase the volume i don't know if anybody else is having a problem but i am yeah ben you're great you're you're loud but that's funny because he's closer go try moses sorry is this is this better that is better thank you okay sorry very soft spoken moses you need to be loud mouth like your dad um and matthew He says, He calls her a dog when he finally answers. And eventually it's shown to be a test for the woman. And he does heal her, but many people would be offended by these things today. And there's also Moroni. Now Moroni being a man who was appointed by the chief judges and the voice of the people. Therefore, he had power according to his will with the armies of the Nephites. to establish and to exercise authority over the Amalekites. And it came to pass that whomsoever of the Amalekites that would not enter into a covenant to support the cause of freedom, that they might maintain a free government, he caused to be put to death. And there were but few who denied the covenant of freedom. So just because they wouldn't follow his rules and believe the same things he did, he was going to put them to death.

And then another example, there were dissenters of the people of the Nephites and who wanted a king instead of the judges. And so Moroni, and akin to pass, that Moroni sent a petition with the voice of the people unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it and give him, Moroni, power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death. just because they believe something different and wouldn't follow the same rules but we know that it wasn't evil and he knew what he was doing and he was defending freedom or later and says and ronai was a strong and mighty man he was a man of but perfect understanding yea a man that did not delight in bloodshed a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country and his brethren from bondage and slavery yea a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his god for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people yea and he was a man who was firm in the faith of christ and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people his rights and his country and his religion even to the loss of his blood And his heart did glory, not in the shedding of blood, but in doing good, in preserving his people.

Yea, in keeping the commandments of God. Yea, in resisting iniquity. Yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever. Yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. So we can see Moroni. clearly was right before God, and yet he allowed these people, or sought for killing those people that wanted liberty, false liberty. And in Matthew, talking about our day, it says, And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil, that put darkness for light and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Which is clearly an example today of all these terrible, horrible things. Black lives matter, love is love, with the little devil symbol right there. And my body, my choice. The Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Journal of Discourses, Orson Hines, as there are many saints at this time who are laboring to acquire wealth in the kingdom of God in the hearts of a good many has become a secondary consideration. I have heard several very able discourses by good men showing that unless our... So he's saying, Who was this, Moses?

Orson Hyde. Oh, thank you. So he's saying the reasoning of the world, if it is correct, it's just as good as any other, as good as Christian's reasoning. And if it is not correct, then it is terribly out of the way. Reasoning has ambiguity. Yes. And going back to Willard Richards, they are so full of sympathy. Dear spirit, sweet spirit, end quote. They would have all men saved, as much as the sister who had read clairvoyance till she had almost forgot her God and hoped the mesmeric world of spirits was true, or that the followers of Lucifer, who lost their own salvation by exercising a spirit of false sympathy, and so will it be with all who forsake the living God and raise up gods of their own imaginations and harbor false spirits. But where is the benevolence of heaven, the sympathy of the holy ones in such matters?

Herein is the benevolence of God manifested. When there is no more hope of a man, instead of keeping him in the midst of children of men to commit further outrages and mar the peace of his kingdom, he thrust him down to his own place to howl out his lamentations and work his passage to the last milestone. While the disinterested benevolence of the priest of Baal would pray him into heaven, in spite of the decrees of heaven with all his unpardonable sins upon his head if they had the power um so that was shorter than i wanted it to be i'm sorry but in conclusion um there's a lot more than meets the eye i suppose there's we should really be discerning in all things we do and really search the scriptures and that's all i have okay thank you can you put that last can you put that back up yeah that last slide oh if i can find it see where to go here we go the last one if i can get to it that one yes thank you okay are we done i'll let you know when i've got it done okay So while Carmen's doing that, I think this is an important, you know, just kind of recapping what Moses talked about. I'd love to hear any comments or questions anybody has.

But we see these, you know, how Satan, how, and this is really important for us, especially as we see, you know, in the cause of liberty and how the conspiracy works. The conspiracy is always using the same type of mindset. And it's important to identify how they constantly use this false morality. uh look what we're doing to help you look what we're doing and if you're against what we're doing that means you don't want to help people you see this with welfare with government schools with abortion with all these things this is false morality this false righteousness and then they'll you know i had this meme um of christ right he's flipping over the money changers tables and then it says you know the people watching him are you know saying that guy needs to be more christ-like it's you know which is obviously tongue-in-cheek because it is christ and so this idea of this false love that is put out there that allows wickedness is false and then god's standard of love where the lord says that you know if you love me keep my commandments or i chasten whom i love it's you know it can appear harsh and mean to the wicked and Whereas what the wicked see, what the wicked do as being nice and loving and inclusive. So is that very good, Carmen? Thank you.

Okay. Any thoughts, questions, comments for Mo? Mark? Yes. Just what you were talking about, Ben, and summarizing. This is so important. I hear it from conservatives as much as Democrats. If there is a need out there, government has a right to meet that need. And we have to get rid of that notion. The political ideology our country is founded upon. There was only one need that government was to meet, and that was to protect or enable natural rights. And it was a protection. And so in that respect, it was a negative function. It was to stop something, not to give. not to meet needs. A regular show I used to call in all the time, they were constantly talking, well, there's not a need there. Is there a need there? And discussing whether government should meet it. So we've got to remember, welfare and charity are really opposites. Welfare is force. Welfare is aggression, taking from those who have and giving it to others, where charity is volunteered and godly.

One last point on that. We all need to, I think, remember the cardinal principle of Marxism. Marx wrote it down a number of times. He talked about it. From those according to their ability to those according to their need. So government is to take from those who have, which is theft, and give it to who they consider are needy. So I think we really need to know just how evil that principle is. That's based on the principle of theft. And theft is nothing. There's nothing about godliness and theft. Okay. Anybody else? I had a question on, you know, I'm not of your faith. Moroni. I thought he was an angel. He's a man, was he? Yeah. So there's two Moronis in the Book of Mormon. You have Moroni, which he was referring to here, which is kind of near the middle of the book. And then there's a Moroni, who's the son of Mormon, who delivered the plates to the prophet Joseph, and so as a resurrected being. So he died roughly 420 AD-ish, and then was a resurrected being. And as a resurrected being, an angel came to Joseph in 1820. So the resurrected human being. Correct. Was the angel? Correct. Oh, okay. He was referred to as the angel Moroni, correct. Thank you. Anybody else? You know, one thing this makes me think of is that the quote from the...

That talk that President Benson gave about communism, the – what was it called? The – or civil rights. Sorry, civil rights, the – Communist decision. Yeah, yeah. Good grief. I haven't read it in a while. So that's the one where he was talking about how, you know, even in his day, talking about the 60s, right? He was talking about people putting the love of man above the love of God and talking about how they worship at the altar of man. which was extremely true in his day and has only gotten even more so in our own day. But that's exactly what Moses was eliminating here tonight, that same thing where we worship the people instead of the God who made them. And we want to just make everybody smile and feel happy and proud of anything that they do, whether or not it violates God's laws. And that's the whole reason that in the scriptures we're told one law is above the other, right? God is the... To love and honor God and obey him is the first greatest law. And then after that is to love our fellow men. Yep. Absolutely. So I'm wondering if the answer to this is to point out to people that they are doing bad. That they're not helping.

They think they're helping and say, you're not helping. I have a question for you. How can we help them if we don't teach them what they're doing wrong? I mean, that pretty much ties our hands if we can. Oh, you did something wrong, but I'm not going to tell you. That's judging. Yeah, I'm judging. But I think you got that spot on. I think that's exactly, maybe correct me if I'm wrong, Moses, but that's among the point is we see these examples of... the false righteousness versus what the right, the real righteousness that looks mean. And we are shamed into not doing the right thing because we don't want to be mean. And where the example of Christ, the example of, right, going back to Laman and Lemuel, what did they say? The wicked take it to the truth to be hard where it cuts them to the very center.

But that was what he did. And so those things that appear mean when they're talking, when they're telling the truth, They're not mean. They're actually loving. They're actually the true scriptural definition of love. Whereas what people call love today is the scriptural definition of hate. And it gets us to accept tyranny, wickedness, and what will lead to tyranny and the destruction of a free society. One of our tools, since the word was brought up, we can use to help guide people towards good is shame. Shame can be used for good or for bad. And let me give you one example. This is one of my favorite half dozen quotes from the founding fathers. Probably most of you have heard it, but let me read it quickly. It's from the man considered the father of the American Revolution. He said, if he loves wealth better than liberty, the tranquillities of servitude better than animated contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may prosperity forget that ye were our countrymen.

Sam Adams, 1776. So, you know, he was, you could say, shaming people. And so shame is something we should consider when people... supporting evil committing evil participating in any way from the advancement of evil it's funny you mentioned shame it reminded me of this 90s movie it must probably more based on a book that i never read either but called the scarlet letter and um it was all about getting people to you were bad if you shame people that's what the scarlet letter was all about and so it was it was it was changing society to a point where they said calling out evil was bad and that you should never shame people. But, you know, shame is a righteous principle. We are supposed to feel shame when we do wickedness. Don't shame somebody for doing good. And, of course, we're only talking about this one tool.

It's not the only tool we can use to guide people. Sure, sure. I'll give an example. When someone comes to my door selling solar panels, And with a government subsidy, and I tell them that is stealing. And I say it nicely, but I want them to understand that that's why I'm turning them away, because I don't steal. Yeah, that's good. One quick comment based on experience in relationship to what you just said. Oh, far over 100 booths, John Birch Society booths at very big events, you know, 80,000 people come by our booths and things like that. And when we have, you know, this is the general population. So you have a lot of people are Democrats, a lot of people are Republicans. And when I would talk about socialism and break it down and define its principles, there was nothing, most of these were considered. liberals, statists, Democrats, these people that responded the way I'm saying. But I got the response over and over again when I pointed out that it was theft and used logic and broke it down and showed them how it was theft. And when I did that, they would deny that. No, socialism is not theft.

And no arguments, just outright denial without any arguments. They can't stand to think of socialism as theft. only motivates me that much more to teach the lesson you were teaching, Joyce. I always just conclude the left doesn't understand math while collectivists don't understand math. They just refuse to do the math. And we can ask them, would you please tell me where my logic failed? What did I say? Because it is such simple math. Show me where two and two isn't far because I'll show you where it is. we can't give up that ground we have to keep educating socialism is hovering violates the ten commandments thou should not steal oh yeah i think uh shame i think shame has its place but i think it's mostly if you really need to like damn somebody and you really need someone to reject something that's not something that they did or whatever i think shame is fine but shame is not a transformative emotion for the person who has shame like having remorse and feeling guilty like those are more feelings that are associated with trying to repair oneself shame is much more of like a self-defeating spiral and so one of the one of the goals of shame is to feel guilt uh and yeah it's what it's encompassing of a lot of things but if you're just like you're really bad and You should feel shameful and never talk to me again.

And so, like, if someone actually takes that to heart, it's not really. I don't think that's a very effective approach to using shame. Yeah, it's not. That's what I'm saying. It's not a very, it's not a transformative emotion. That's belittling. But if there's somebody, and that's what shame is. It's attached to that belittling. I think Sam Adams was shaming people, but it was in a much more sophisticated way. But, you know, there's many ways we can drive him to accept the truth. But one of the things we need to point out is what the truth is and what evil is and how bad evil is. And when you talk about damnation, I think that's left up to God. There's so much in the scriptures that point out that it's either implicit or explicit. Damnation comes with embracing this evil or that evil. Yeah, I agree. This sin or that sin.

And it's really important that we identify what is and is not evil. You know, there's certain lines that can't be crossed. You know, like if somebody is a murderer, you know, shame on you. The medicine is execution. And so, well, shaming is... shaming whatever you know the point is is like don't be this like if you're trying if you're using shame it should be don't do don't be what this guy is like that's what you wouldn't and so that's when you would use shame you know like the federal reserve i'll shame them all day there's there's no there's no fixing them there's only lopping their heads off you know and so Yeah, you're making a good point, Rod. Shame is usually for a lesser of a sin than the major impartable sins. How did these collectivists get these people on the board with inspiring them that they were going to save the world, that they're going to bring about world peace and freedom from disease? oh, a clean environment, save the earth.

These people are motivated by noble goals. And so if we can show them that those dastardly people are actually not helping them get closer to those noble goals and that we do have a way, maybe that captures them more than. Or bringing about just the opposite of what they claim they're doing. But often in those bargains, when they're convincing them this is good for mankind, is, oh, by the way, you'll have a $200,000 salary. You should participate in our plan here. Yeah, we only ask you to spend money in our plan. Spend your own money. No Soros is going to bail you out of jail in our little group. I know on to the point of talking about feigned selflessness, whenever I'm reading something and anything that comes from any kind of corporation and the headline is, like, you need security or you need to be safe, I know that whatever's coming out of their mouth next is a bunch of evil nonsense. Good. Like, yeah. That's like feigned, very feigned selflessness. I see that a lot in repair stuff.

Anyway, I don't know. Yeah, we could point out to the person that I can see that you want to be selfless and loving. You're that kind of person. This is the way you really can be. If we could find something they say we could be agreeing with, then we take them from that position to the right position. So if they're saying something like they do care about their fellow man in some respect. Now, this is... but what have you this is your recommendation is this really benefiting mankind or not and often they often start with a false premise uh that that tactic is used constantly by the conspiracy they give you two choices and both of them are evil uh so we we often have one of the best things to do first is look at the premise underneath what they're saying and the premise is where you're looking at the principle uh so we get an argument principle that's what we you know constantly need to do is Ben often talks about.

On the Kate Dolly show, many of my calls were, well, look at the underlying principle or the premise here is false and collapsing arguments. When you go after arguments, that's one of the first places to start is the premise to the argument. Yeah, it makes it so much easier too. I don't have to read piles of data on how... freebie thing is going to help our local government or serve the people. I just look at the principle. Is my government allowed to or supposed to be providing that service? No, then I don't have to look at all that data. And then how did we get into the situation? And that gets to how did we vote? How did we not? educate others. How did we not educate others to vote the right way, but not just voting, but educating other ways as well. You're still a voter? Oh, it's getting less and less. You know, I used to have, you know, Libertarian Party, Constitution Party candidates sometimes. American independent, but even there, I'm finding, and often they're not even on the ballot. So it's getting less and less and less. You know, that Liberty report that Ron Paul is on with this other guy, he said just so casually, he said, back when I used to vote. And I thought, oh man, I bet Ron Paul too. I bet that because they're two buddies, you know, back when they used to vote.

Well, if you're really a good person, you're standing on principle. And the candidates we have out there, I don't know why we wouldn't be saying that much of the time. It sounds like we're getting an open forum, so I just wanted to close up and we'll get into the open forum. I wanted to thank again Moses for his hard work and the effort that he put in tonight's presentation. I really appreciated what was said. And let's go ahead and close our meeting. And I'd like to ask... Where did you go? Okay, I guess. Oh, there you are. Bobby, would you be willing to say the closing prayer for us, Bobby? Good thing. Thanks.

Dear Father in heaven, we thy servants come before thee at the end of this evening, and thank thee for the presentation that Moses gave us. We thank thee for the well-thought-out efforts that he put behind his presentation, and we thank thee for his desire to share the messages of truth that would enlighten our hearts and souls and minds. We thank thee for the people in this company tonight that have participated in either forms of listening or communication. We pray thy spirit to be upon us as we rest this evening. And please help us to take these messages to those that surround us and help them to realize that there is a real fight between good and evil in this world. And we have to take a stand or our republic will be lost if we don't. Father, we pray thy peace to be upon our souls as we end this meeting here shortly and that we can all go home this night to rest and to ponder these things upon our hearts and minds. We pray, Father, thy will above all be done in all things in the sacred and holy name of Jesus Christ. Amen.