Member Training – Do The Facts Bear Out?

Member training from July 14th, 2025.

In this training, Ben emphasized the foundational truth that nullification, interposition, and even tyrannicide must be grounded in God’s law and personal morality—not emotion or rebellion. We reviewed how liberty without morality quickly degenerates into lawlessness, and that legitimate authority must be obeyed when aligned with God’s will. I drew from scripture, history, and principle to show how righteous resistance looks when applied correctly—from the Hebrew midwives and Captain Moroni to Jehoiada’s overthrow of tyranny. Rod followed up by exposing the false savior narrative promoted through figures like Reagan, Obama, QAnon, and Trump—highlighting how the conspiracy uses these puppets to placate the people while advancing global tyranny. We discussed how vital it is that we take personal responsibility, vet our sources, and stop waiting for someone else to save us. True change comes when we repent, get informed, and act according to eternal principles—because the conspiracy will never just give up power.

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TRANSCRIPT

Dearest Father in heaven, I'm grateful to thee for this time we have to get together and to discuss the things of liberty and how we can better serve thee and build thy kingdom. We ask thee for thy spirit to be with us, that we will receive the things in the spirit that thou would have us, that we can apply them in a way that will help us to be effective and that we can further thy cause. We ask thee to bless us that those that are seeking to overthrow our freedom will repent and that they will turn away from their wicked ways. And that we as a people will return, will turn away from our wicked ways, that we repent of our sins, that we can be worthy vessels for thee. And I pray this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

We are referring to the portion of the manual, nullification, interposition, and tyrannicide, which we'll be discussing next week. So one thing I wanted to bring out and hopefully that you noticed. is before we even covered the nullification, interposition, and tyrannicide, we covered the need for understanding natural law and being moral before we covered this topic. So it's very important, and it was put in this order for a reason, because if you just do nullification, if you just do interposition, all these different things, without morality and God's law, you are simply you're what breaks down to an anarchist or a libert somebody that's involved in libertinism and they're basically a law unto themselves they're just like oh if you don't have morality in god's law you are just saying i don't like what the what you're doing so i'm not going to do it i'm going to do whatever i want and so we have to be moral and we have to be a people that know and understand and are willing to defend god's law before we can get into this position. Otherwise, we will be falling into traps that the conspiracy has and will lay. And we have to understand that this is not liberty. Just doing whatever you want. You don't like what the government's doing and you ignore them. That is not liberty.

We need to understand that. And so that's why we really covered the importance of morality and God's law. in the foundation before we get to the enforcement portion of defending liberty. So getting into James Madison in Federalist 48, he says that words don't enforce themselves. He says, the conclusion which I am warranted in drawing from these observations is that a mere demarcation on parchment of the constitutional limits of the several departments is not a sufficient guard against those encroachments which lead to a tyrannical concentration of all the powers of government in the same hands so parchment right these parchment uh demarcations on parchment parchment barriers what he's saying is barriers written on paper do not prevent people from doing bad things by themselves right if they did everyone would be moral because the ten commandments are written down on paper and if paper enough was enough to stop people from be doing bad things No one would be committing adultery. Nobody would be worshiping other false gods. Nobody would be stealing. Nobody would be murdering, right?

But just like with the Ten Commandments, the Constitution itself cannot enforce itself. It's being written down is not enough to protect it, those provisions. And so we need to understand that it is not paper that enforces itself. We have to enforce these principles ourselves, okay? But what about gun-free zone signs? Free speech zone signs, right? Signs. Things that are written down on metal, plastic, anything. They do not enforce themselves. They have to be enforced. The example I love is crosswalks. Some people actually think they're going to protect you from a car hitting you. Oh, yeah. Well, Micah tells a story where he went to the bank and they asked for his ID and they looked at his driver's license and they saw that it was expired and they wondered how he got there.

Because clearly you can't drive if your license is expired. So, right, it doesn't mean just do whatever you want, okay? In the book Downfall of Tyranny, we read, if the magistrate command us to do anything which he hath authority from God and the people to command, we are bound to obey him actively, okay? So if those things are things that God has authorized a government leader to do and the people have granted them that power, and they apply that power or they implement that power, we are duty-bound to obey it. We don't just get to ignore things that we just don't like. Indeed, the very light of nature teaches subjection to such governors as punish vice and praise virtue. And to resist the magistrate in the due punishing of vice or praise of virtue is not only a violation of the law of God written in the scriptures of truth, but of the law of nature written in the hearts of all mankind. So I am definitely not, you know, as much as I preach, you know, against tyranny and in favor of nullification and interposition and tyrannicide, I am not against a legitimate government fulfilling its godly duty and role. And so we want to make sure that we understand that it's not just, you know, I want to do donuts in I-15. I'm going to go do donuts in I-15. Right.

And I'm going to commit tyrannicide on any cop that tries to stop me. That's not liberty. That's not that's not anything that I am promoting of any sort of any kind. Right. Let's see. Yes, Mark. Yes. Generally, nullification falls in two categories. And this is consistent with what you just said. One is legal enforcement of legal laws that are godly, like the U.S. Constitution. And that's where we need to be using it most. The other is godly laws like justice. So what is just justice? According to principle, political principle, according to God's law. And those are the areas of not only nullification, but for an aside as well. Thank you. Okay, so nullification is a godly principle seen throughout scripture. And we've seen and we've done trainings on this. We have the Hebrew midwives disobeying Pharaoh's order.

Moses defying Pharaoh, demanding the release of God's people. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Daniel and Lyonsden. Peter and John telling government officials they're not going to follow the order to not preach Christ. Captain Moroni threatens to replace the Nephite government if it failed to support liberty and resist oppression. So this is a godly principle. This is an eternal principle. This is something that we need to internalize. And so that we have to first understand and internalize. before we can really start to do it well well i want to i want to have your statement i like what you said go ahead more maccabean revolt yes absolutely lots and lots and lots of examples that could take up pages and pages and pages so um how do we identify if a law deserves to be nullified so just some points that um we need to keep in mind and we can refer to and these are in the manual right does the does the law Does it go against the glory of God, right?

If I follow this law, will I be doing the opposite of glorifying God? Does it violate God's laws? their specific application is a violation of god's law if you were to able to do the same thing if you were to do the same thing that the government is doing right if you were to if you were to implement this law would you be punished by the same government that's doing that same thing and then does this law violate your conscience if you obey it so these are some principles that you can consider as you look through different things that are going on new things that pop up old things that you look through Say, you know what, does this put government as an idol? You know, ask yourself these types of questions and identify things that should be nullified privately. So now we get into interposition, right? To place between, to make an intervenient. Yes, Mark.

Yes, just on that fourth category, you know, we're not talking about psychopaths, sociopaths, conscience, because there's... Obviously. yeah people's conscience yes yeah godly conscience consistent with god's law absolutely and that's why we have that foundation of morality first before we get here so to thrust in as an obstruction interruption or inconvenience right so it's your and to interpose between a tyrant and a victim you are standing between them okay so now we get to it's you know another way of putting it is standing in the gap And in the scriptures, we find this story of the king saying that if somebody does X, they will die. They will be put to death. And then one of the king's sons, Jonathan, did the thing that was illegal. And everybody had an uproar. So the scripture says, Shall Jonathan die who hath wrought this great salvation in Israel? God forbid, as the Lord liveth, there shall not one hair of his head fall to the ground. For he hath wrought with God this day.

So the people rescued Jonathan that he died not. So we have the king saying he's going to die. And then we have the people of Israel standing between the king and Jonathan to make sure that that sentence is not executed. Rod. So this is one of those things that I've told my wife for a long time. I've kind of complained about that, you know, in like places like India, When things happen that the people are pissed off about, they will all in this giant mass go down and stand up and get in the way. Right. But we don't do that in America. You know, we just sit back and shake our heads and whatever, you know, if we're even paying attention. Right. But that's the thing. The people rescued Jonathan. And that's that's the way it should be, that we should be we should take these things personally. And I mean, that kind of ties into the lesson I'm going to be talking about in a few minutes here. But we have a personal responsibility and we need to be taking that upon ourselves. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, it's kind of interesting, right? We have this kind of these opposites where you have in one case, Israel as a whole demanded a king when God said don't. But then in this instance, the king was being wicked and Israel stood in the gap to make sure that Jonathan wasn't killed.

Yeah, and we should follow that example. Absolutely. So the next one is tyrannicide. This is the most controversial one. And, you know, the one that would be the most uncomfortable to implement. And so which is why it's so important that we have a moral people and that we have a people that understand natural law so that we do this, that we don't put off doing this, but we also don't do it in an appropriate when we're not ourselves in a position where God would support that effort. And so, giving this account again in, I think it's in Kings, the killing of a tyrant, no, Chronicles, sorry, 2 Chronicles. King Uzziah of Judah, influenced by his mother, Othelia, and the corrupt house of Ahab, reigned wickedly for one year before being killed by Jehu, God's appointed agent of judgment. And then Othelia seized power by murdering the royal heirs, except for one infant, Joash. was secretly rescued and hidden in the temple for six years by his aunt Jehoishabah and her husband, the priest Jehoiada. And in the seventh year, Jehoiada orchestrated a bold coup, frowning Johash as king and leading a revival of covenant faithfulness. So you have this righteous Jehoiada or Jehoiada who not only does he hide the legitimate king, But he makes sure that when the timing is right, he kills the wicked leader, the wicked king, and makes sure that the legitimate leader is put into place.

So the king was executed, Baal worship was abolished, and the rightful Davidic line was restored, reaffirming God's sovereignty and the triumph of righteousness over tyranny. So it's a fantastic story in the scriptures, learning about actually implementing tyrannicide in a righteous way. And it's interesting how bow worship was abolished. So, you know, in a truly free society, that doesn't mean that people can just do whatever they want. There is definitely limits in a godly society of what people can do. And we have lots and lots of examples of that and the proper example of tyrannicide. And so we can see that as one example, but it's important that we can read through the scriptures. and through other books that bring these things together to help us to understand these principles. And so that when it is right, we will know it's right. Okay. So I guess I goofed up on the right. These are proper application starts with understanding, right? We need to learn about nullification, interposition and tyrannocyte. So of course, we start off with the scriptures is just fantastic stories. We know these are godly examples of when people do these things. And then another book, which we'll be doing the book club in August, A Defense of Liberty Against Tyrants, Killing No Murder, A Great Example of Tyrannicide, and The Downfall of Tyranny, which will be out very, very soon.

And so I encourage everyone to go through those books and get copies of it for yourself and go through them and study them for fantastic examples of how we implement and what are the principles that show these things. downfall of tyranny as well as a defense of liberty are two fantastic books that are just giving a scriptural account after scriptural account of people doing these things and so just answering people that say don't we have to obey tyrants no matter what and then going through and showing one after one example after another where no we don't have to do it no this is a scripture example of how we don't do that and so these are fantastic resources for us to make sure that we are studying with this in mind right when you read the scriptures especially it's important to read it with a with a topic in mind that you can glean out of specifically because otherwise it's just like okay there's lots of different layers in this and so it's important where you're if you want to understand the scriptures say about this topic to think about this topic and and look and search it topically to find examples of these situations. So I encourage you to get those books, write those books and study them on your own as books to be able to better understand. these principles.

So with that, in the coming week, please go through that section. I'd love to get your questions and thoughts next week as we have it be your discussion on this topic. But with that, I will turn the time over to Rod. Give me just a second. Get my screen set up here. Okay. Can you see the right one? I sure can. Remember training? Yep. Okay. Excuse me. Okay, cool. All right, then. Let's see over here. All right. So, you know, we frequently have these people presented to us as heroes of the left and the right. And Reagan, we all recognize as one of these, right? He is this conservative hero. In fact, we've got this book here published by Princeton University, The Rise and Fall of Modern American Conservatism. And they put out... put out this book, Chapter 5 of which is called Ronald Reagan, the Conservative Hero, right? So it's not just me saying this. I mean, it should be obvious, right? We all recognize Reagan as this conservative hero. And, you know, he's got a lot of provocative quotes that seem to espouse patriotism and conservatism. And a couple of examples are this one here. It's when people are helping one another.

Not because they're taxed or coerced into it, but because they want to. That concern for one's fellow man becomes part of a nation's soul. That's just beautiful. And it sounds great. And golly, Reagan sure hated taxes, and I hate taxes too, so he must be our man, right? I got this one here. It's people, not government, who create wealth, provide growth, and ensure prosperity. It's another great one. I love the sound of that. I love the words that are used. And you think to yourself, gee, Reagan sure hated socialism. I hate socialism, too. So he must be our man, right? Well, this lesson is entitled Do the Facts Bear Out? And we're going to talk a little bit, like I said before, about our personal responsibility when it comes to liberty and opposing tyranny. We have this problem in our society, and it's really a human problem, and that is that we as humans want somebody else to fix our problems for us. We would rather not do anything, right? I don't know what it was we were talking about a couple days ago, but Ben and I and I think Samantha are talking about how You know, the people just wanted Moses to go up the mountain and talk to God for them, right, on their behalf. They didn't want to have to do anything. They wanted him to take care of it. Well, a lot of you are probably aware that on the Tree of Liberty website, we've got several articles talking about Ronald Reagan.

The one on the left here, Reagan Made Me Believe in Conspiracies, describes how Ben came to realize over time that Reagan was part of the Bohemian Grove sodomite agenda. that he was working to thwart the activities of the free Chinese government and to support the Chinese communists, and that he was filling his cabinet with globalists. And then the one on the right there, the Reagan Deception, a wolf in sheep's clothing, talks in detail about Reagan's long history with the Trilateral Commission and Council on Foreign Relations, among other things. Reagan appealed to people by speaking out against these groups, right? But as soon as he could, he pulled people from those very groups into his cabinet to advise him and to guide his actions in the presidency. So saying one thing and doing another. And really, here's the key, right? All of these people, if they are allowed to hold positions of influence and know how to tell a certain portion of the populace exactly what they want to hear, which earns them the trust and admiration of the masses, despite the fact that they rarely, if ever, follow through on their promises. And I'm going to share you an example here. This is from the Annenberg Public Policy Center. And I know this, you know, Annenberg group is garbage, but they've documented the fact that Reagan ran for president. on a platform that included abolishing the Department of Education.

That made him really popular, made Americans really excited because they knew the government had no constitutional mandate to be involved in education. And at that time, anyways, they didn't want the government brainwashing their children. But what happened after he got elected? Well, let's just read it. It says in his State of the Union speech, President Ronald Reagan calls for the end of the Department of Education. Reagan says he believes that decisions about education should be made at the local level and that the federal government should play only a minor role in the nation's schools. The speech stirs up a debate in Congress. In the end, the department is funded, although at lower levels than in the past. So you've got the government deciding that, golly, their indoctrination program was just too important to discontinue. And you can see at the end of the article that, The Board of Education was funded, now funded at lower levels, but we all know what has happened to it in the intervening years, right, between 82 and now. It's got, I mean, just absurd amounts of money being thrown at it. And we might sit back and think to ourselves, golly, it's too bad that Reagan didn't get what he wanted, right? But that's one of the points that we want to make here. is that he got exactly what he wanted. He got the praise and the worship of the people, and he got the continuation of his puppet master's will.

They wanted Department of Education. There was no way they were going to get rid of it, but they needed somebody in power that they could control. So Reagan came forward, got the people on his side, and pretended that he was going to do away with something that he knew, of course, they were never going to do away with. And so... You know, you might ask yourself, why did the people continue to follow after and support Reagan even after he had committed such a blatant deception? And here's the key. They knew something was wrong, and he claimed that he would solve the problem without any effort on their part. So here's this thing. We need to get rid of it. And, gee, golly gee, what are we going to do? This might be a big, difficult fight for us to get rid of. Here comes Reagan. He's presented to the people as their political savior. I'm going to get rid of this thing that you all know is wrong. And he doesn't, right? And nothing happens. And things never change.

That's the thing. The conspiracy does this for both the left and the right. So I'm going to share another couple of examples here about this political savior condition. I don't think anybody's going to be surprised. who the next one is. And you may recall during the 2008 era that nearly every image that was taken of Obama was intentionally presented to put him in a religious light for his mostly irreligious audience. So here you've got the light shining in his hands, right? And you've got this, you can see the effect this had on people over here on the right, spray painted around town, Obama is God. Look at these other images though. You've got You know, this poster on the left with the sunbeams all shining out of his head, and it looks like he's made out of gold. The Newsweek article referring to him as a god, presenting him with all these arms like a Hindu god, right? And then the one on the right where all these people, the White House journalists and staffers, would constantly make it a point. And in fact, I read somewhere. that they were actually told that they were supposed to do this kind of thing where they would frame it with the light behind his head or the circles behind his head like a halo. And again, you can see I put the caption on there on that image on the right.

This came from WhiteHouse.gov. This is an official photograph of Obama at the time. So you can see that they were complicit. Even the White House was complicit in this deception. We also have QAnon, and this wasn't a person that people knew, but it was somebody, quote unquote, that they could look up to, right? Trust the plan. It was the exact same purpose. They were waiting for somebody else to solve their problems. And so the government, the conspiracy, put this QAnon guy forward for the... presented this character forward, and all these people, especially among conservatives, got on board. Hey, there's this guy. He's going to solve all of our problems for us. We know there's all this stuff wrong. He's going to deal with it. And in fact, QAnon was, I remember at one point, talking about how our next person here, our next savior, was going to save the day. Remember, Q&L was telling everybody he's going to drain the swamp behind the scenes. Remember January, what is it, 20th, when he gets sworn in, he's going to have everybody else arrested and all these deep state people.

And none of this crap ever happened, right? But what it did, it served the purpose of placating the people and making it so that they wouldn't take any action. They would just sit back thinking that somebody else was handling it. These pictures are ridiculous, in my opinion, every one of these. But so looking at Trump, like part of the game here, part of the game is that placating the people, right? Getting them to sit back and do nothing. And like I mentioned with Reagan, Reagan's promise was that he was going to get rid of the Department of Education. And then, of course, knowing that The other people on his team weren't going to allow that to happen. Well, we've seen some of those same things with Trump. And one of those was recently, I remember a little while back, he pulled us out of the World Health Organization, if I remember correctly. And then just the other day, a few days ago, I saw that I think it was the Supreme Court came in and nullified that. Doggone it.

We're just not going to let it happen. Sorry. But, oh, Trump's our savior, though. And he tried. He told us he was going to do it, and darn it didn't happen, but he tried. So he's still our Savior. He's going to do it for us. You know, it's almost like it's a pattern, right? Gosh, you see these things happen over and over again. Different people, same story, over and over and over again. They might let a few things go in a positive direction, and sometimes they concede some small things, but these concessions are usually touted so loudly. that the masses don't see what the other hand is doing. So they're pretending to give you a concession, and it's all over the news. And you've got the, for instance, in this case, you've got the so-called right-wing talking heads and whatever touting this thing that he says he's going to do, he's pretending to do. And then you've got the left side over here pretending, just being angry, and they hate it because, golly, he's... Taking away our freedoms and all this stuff.

But at the same time, he's got other stuff he's pulling on us that we don't even know about because we're so distracted with the stupid thing that they, the little game that they were playing here. One of the things that's interesting here with Trump, wherein we know that he's not the political savior, is that we have a story that we worked on at the beginning of the year and then... finish up and get out, which we still need to, which is about the fact that pretty much all of Trump's cabinet is just filled with these globalist shills. He's got CFR members. He's got trilateral commission members. He's got sodomites. He's got people that have sworn their allegiance to Israel, which shouldn't come as a surprise the way things have been going lately. But we could have all known this ahead of time, how things were going to play out had we paid attention to who it was that he was calling into all of his cabinet positions.

So if you look at that, then you step back and ask yourself, did Jesus really put this guy in power for us? Did Jesus really make sure that Trump was going to sit in the seat here so that all the good things would happen for us and bring us back to God? Of course not. The only way that's going to happen is hell. It's going to be by the people themselves repenting and turning themselves back to God. There's not a political savior that's going to do it for us. And we have these examples that Ben was sharing with us a little while ago about Israel. And he mentioned there were times when all the people supported Jehoiada, right? And they all turned back to God. And then there were other times when they turned their back on God. And the Lord told the prophet, Let them have a king. They're not rejecting you, they're rejecting me. Does that sound familiar?

Look at what we're doing today. The only way that it's going to turn around is for us personally to repent, but we don't like it. Let's talk real quick then about how we can avoid being deceived again by this kind of stuff. Step one is ask yourself when these things come up, is this too good to be true? This isn't a new thing, right? This is a principle that's been around for a long, long time. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. This is a principle we need to follow, and it's the first one you should start with. Does it sound too good to be true? Step two, ask yourself if the proposed solution abdicates personal responsibility or if it usurps the natural rights of the citizens. This is another pretty solid principle, I think. What makes that personal savior trope we've been talking about so popular is that people are lazy, right? They're lazy. They enjoy being wicked. They want somebody else to solve their problems so they can personally avoid the discomfort that comes with, A, repentance, and B, having to step up and... about this. We've allowed this secret combination to get above us. And boy, are they, they have so much power over our lives.

We know it's going to be uncomfortable to do anything about it. And there's really only a few of us that are looking at that and saying, you know, and seeing what it is for what it is, right? We want to do something. And now we see how big the problem is. On this point, I would say we need to look at the founding fathers, right? They set an excellent example for us of taking personal responsibility despite incurring tremendous losses. That's part of what makes me sick hearing about what is being taught about the founding fathers in the public schools these days, talking about how they were just a bunch of, you know, racist, misogynist, and all this kind of nonsense, right? And they just wanted to perpetuate slavery and perpetuate the patriarchy and all this kind of stuff. Okay, nonsense. These guys lost their businesses, lost their power, lost their money, lost their lands. And, you know, some, even, who was it, Gouverneur Morris? Or who was it that lost, like, four of his sons were killed because he wouldn't remove his name from the Declaration of Independence? Right? That's not what you do if you're just selfish and looking for your personal interests. These guys weren't sitting around and hoping and praying for a new king of England that would somehow have a change of heart and give freedom to the people. They looked at the problem and they said, well, gee, this is my responsibility.

If something's going to change, I'm going to have to do it. And of course, as Ben pointed out a little while ago as well, we've got a bunch of examples from the scriptures. And I believe that the apostles from the New Testament all give us excellent examples of that. They knew things needed to happen. Things needed to change. They had to personally do something about it. The next point is this. You have to ask yourself if you have enough information to properly make a judgment. And this part's difficult. But it's important nonetheless because, you know, we've got on a daily basis, we've got all kinds of things that get shared in these conservative groups or from our friends on Facebook. And we want to click like on all this, you know, the picture of Reagan with the quote, just like what I showed earlier.

They sound great. And, you know, rah-rah conservatism and patriotism and whatever. But you hear things like what Reagan was a national hero. JFK was killed because he was trying to fight the National or the Federal Reserve, right? And those sound great, but the problem is they reinforce a lot of false ideas in our mind because we don't stop and do any research personally. We look at this stuff and we say, yay, yay, and we support it and promote it. We may even share it without knowing enough about the issue to say whether or not it's true. Do we know anything? Can we actually back up the assertion with some data? If not, we probably shouldn't say anything at all. Instead, it ought to go on the shelf and it should be something that we do some research about. Again, we're talking about ways that we can avoid being deceived here. And a big part of it is these last three steps together. It's about personal responsibility. We have to do something about it ourselves. Part of that, again, is the fact that a lot of this stuff that's out there comes from the memes and the websites and a lot of these groups.

A large measure, they come from people that are themselves ignorant about issues. They saw a thing and they assumed they knew what they were talking about and they were promoting it. And, you know, kudos to them for trying to promote good principles. But at the same time, it's an... approach you need to know what you are talking about and then on the other side you've got people who are actually spreading these things on purpose because it promotes well it keeps you distracted from what's true and like i said earlier it reinforces false ideas in our minds and promotes falsehoods one of the last things here that we need to remember all the time i think this is the most important principle here Isn't mom in bed home? Make sure you're muted, please. One of the most important principles here that can protect us from things like this political savior deception is to remember that there is a global conspiracy that controls the outcomes of elections and wars, and they're not going to cave into the demands of the righteous. They play a good pretend game, but in the end, it always goes the way they want to.

You may have noticed it doesn't matter which way the pendulum swings between the false left or the false right. The conspiracy always gets what they want. And we continue to move forward towards globalism and this global tyranny. It doesn't matter. We have to stop playing the game. Stop buying what they're selling. An example I wanted to share was that back in 2008 somewhere. I don't know what it was. Around there, around the time Obama got elected, I think, we were living in California and they passed Proposition 8, which legally defined marriage as being between a man and a woman in their state constitution. Well, it immediately went into a legal challenge and the people were told it can't be implemented until these legal challenges are decided upon. We sent it to the courts and let them decide.

So here's the... what you might call the right side of the issue. The people voted for it. It should be law. You know, we can't do it. We can't let it be a thing. However, on the other side of the issue, the wrong side of the issue here, the definitely wrong side of the issue, I would argue that the other side was wrong as well, but that's an argument for a different day. The argument here on the other side with gay marriage, well, You know, there's legal challenges right now, so we have to allow this to happen. They immediately allowed and commanded all of the state employees to start performing gay marriages and allowing them to come in and getting these marriage certificates signed from the state. You see how it works? It doesn't matter what the people want. They're going to make sure that what they want happens.

Mark, I'm almost done, so I'll get to questions in just a minute. It didn't matter. It didn't matter. The people voted. It should have immediately become a law. There was a specific date set, but it didn't become a law when the date came around because they put it into a legal challenge. But immediately after it got voted and then went into a legal challenge, they didn't even wait for the date to come around. They immediately started to perform the gay marriages. Whatever they want. It's going to happen. They tell you they're going to do the right thing. Sometimes there's another part of the game that they play that tell you that they're going to do the right thing. But, you know, it's it's scheduled to be implemented five or 10 years down the road. Right. Well, what's the point of that? Number one, they hope you'll have. Number two, they're hoping that the minions in the court system will have overturned it by then. And number three, it's somebody else's problem at that point, right? If I'm Trump today and I say, oh yeah, we're going to go ahead and X, Y, Z in five years, he's not going to be the president any longer.

And guess what? The way we allow them in the conspiracy to play the stupid game now is that it's a different... It's a new king every four years, and they start implementing their own personal policies and likes and dislikes, right? So whatever Trump does now, the next tyrant comes in and overthrows and overturns. So it doesn't matter whether they give you the concessions in word and in name, but rarely ever in deed, and these things always get flipped back around on their head. They get overturned on technicalities as well. Here's the thing. The conspiracy has not spent the last 250 years building up to this moment only to cave in because the people voted against them, right? We're not going to sit here and ask them nicely to give back our freedoms after they've been working at this for 250 years. They're not going to just roll over.

And that's why I want to point out why the Tree of Liberty Society exists. Think back about what... was just talking about prior to my presentation here. Interposition and, I mean, all of those three steps. Those are the things that are going to have to happen. They're the only things that are effective. They're not going to just roll over because we ask. And Tree of Liberty Society exists also because we try to awaken people to a sense of their awful situation, like the Book of Mormon describes it, and to shake them. to a realization that if they, or I should say we, don't take personal responsibility, we're going to ultimately lose everything. So the final thought I want to leave with you tonight is this one. What can I do while I can still do something? And with that, I want to open it up for questions. Mark, you had your hand up. Yes.

Well, just a comment on what you just said. We better not do anything until we're radically educated so we know what right or wrong is. And much of what you covered was examples are occurring because people don't know what right or wrong is. They don't judge based on whether they support tyranny or liberty. They are pulled in and pulled by the media. But a few points, one really important one, and most of these are real brief. is regarding the federal courts telling Trump he can't do this or that. That's all a ruse, complete con job, completely. Correct. I ask everybody here to tell me, anybody here to tell me where the Constitution gives the federal courts, Supreme Court, any authority over the President of the United States' actions. And that fact right there actually is what tells you that they are... part of the con game that's exactly it right there yeah and it's the conspiracy this is evidence of the power of the conspiracy that all the media and all the people are have less than a fourth grade education regarding civics thinking that the federal courts oh they're knocking him down when he was trying to do something good And that's the con game to make it appear as though he's doing something good. And this has happened about eight times between his first administration and this one, the asylum. Remember when they said, oh, you can't keep people that are asking for asylum on the other side of the border and so forth. None of these so-called good things that he wants to do that he says they tell him he can't do are constitution.

Any godly president. that knows even a fourth grade level civics, the president should be saying, you have no authority over me. Sight in the Constitution were the power to restrict my action. And by the way, if they had power, how are they going to enforce that? What if Trump says, no, I don't want to do that? They have no way enforcing it. How did the founding fathers give a power to a branch of government that has no way of enforcing their power? Yeah, you are exactly correct. You reminded me, though, of one of the other things that bothers me is that recently Trump's been talking about revoking citizenship of all kinds of people left and right, right? Now, are there any talking heads, I haven't seen any anyways, calling them out on that? No, they're not going to say anything because they're going to just let him get away with it. It's another constitutional... that they're going to allow him to usurp. Alan, you had your hand up a minute ago. Did you have something you still wanted to say? Or did we lose you? You still here? Alan Porter. I couldn't get the mic turned back on. Oh, gotcha. Go ahead.

I was going to... I left for a little while, so I didn't hear what Ben had said. But I think one of the things we've got to do is, even in ignorance, is to stand up and tell people how we feel. tell people what we think is right, even out of ignorance. I don't, a bold person gets people's attention and someone else will say, yeah, I kind of believe in that. When Lot was looking for one righteous person or Dan or whatever, I don't think there was that many unrighteous people. There was just a whole bunch of sheep that wouldn't make a stand that didn't want to get involved. Alan, let me ask you a question. So you're put in a plane to fly. You have no experience flying a plane at all because you're ignorant and you're going to be bold. You're going to try to take off. Is that a sound strategy? Ignorance is never.

Well, I would say maybe like in that giving that same scenario. And I'm not. It's a balanced thing to me. It's there. We don't want to just do nothing because we're afraid we don't know enough. Let's say the pilot has a heart attack and there's nobody on the plane up in the air that knows how to fly it. I'm going to do my best to try and get us down to the ground alive. I don't know anything. There's a good chance I'm going to kill everyone, but I can't not do something. Right, but that's a false... What do you call it? That's not the situation. Well, the situation Alan said without necessity of trying to save lives. Can I do a little clarifying maybe? Yeah, go for it. When I went out in the mission field in North Texas, there was a Church Christ minister going around and chewing up the green elders and they'd go home.

This guy approached me and I unloaded on him. Elder Cannon, my trainer, he says, Brother Porter, you've quoted the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price. The guy doesn't know a damn thing that you're talking about. And my response was, it was all the word of God. That's all that matters. The guy didn't get nowhere. I was a missionary. scriptures and seminary scriptures. So even though we don't know everything, the little bit we know, if we know truth, we've got to stand up and say the truth that we know because it does make an impact. If that was the Church of Christ minister coming, I'm sure he had to go nurse his butt when he left. Well, Alan, I definitely... I definitely want to agree with you. I think that what we have to remember is do what we can with what we have. And I think that's the point that Ben was trying to make a minute ago. We can't wait, like Mark was saying earlier, until we know everything. We know that we're ignorant, right? We don't know everything. So we can't just sit around and not do anything until we know everything, and that'll never happen. So you are correct.

We have to do what we can with what we have. Ron, I never said that. We have to know everything. No, I know. But I mean, you were talking about what we were. We don't know all this stuff. And that's I was just kind of exaggerating it a little bit. But the point is. The point is, again, we can be frozen because we know we don't know everything. But I do agree with Alan that we need to be bold enough to do what we can with what we have. But the counterpoint I wanted to make, and I think it's a super important principle that's scriptural, is that at the same time, we have to be humble enough to be corrected. So if that minister had been correct about something, and corrected you on something you said, then you should have accepted that, right? And I was a missionary too, and I had those things happen to me.

There were times I spoke out of turn. I said something I didn't really know enough about, and I was corrected. And we have to be humble enough to accept that. And I think that goes with us in politics as well. So, Ben, what were you going to say? You look like you had something. I was going to say it's time's up. We're going to get to open forum and close up the meeting. Thank you, Rod. I appreciate the effort that you put in tonight's training. I appreciate everybody's comments. And let's go ahead to have a closing prayer. Linda Stoll, would you say the closing prayer for us? If I can get... You're good. You're unmuted. Oh, I'm unmuted. Awesome. Yes, I will. Okay.

Our dear Heavenly Fathers, we can be for thee tonight. We're grateful for the discussion that we have been exposed to and the thoughts. and the purity of hearts of the men and the women who are trying to find truth. And as we move forward, trying to find the way to follow Thee and follow correct principles that we might have Thy guidance and Thy Spirit to be with us. We ask Thee to bless us, that we might be brave and that we might be wise and that we might be holy. that we might be able to determine how to save our country, how to reach out to those we love and have them join with us, and that we might see the direction to go. We're thankful for all of those who have helped, who are teaching, training, sharing, and supporting one another. We ask that you bless us, that we might have the high spirit to be with us. And these things we pray for in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. amen thank you